Date   

INTRO- Looking for information on Wanda BERGMAN m. Lehman LOEB #germany

Judy Palmer <jurepalmer@...>
 

Hello GerSig,
I just joined the group. Other members of my extended family have
done quite a bit of research, so I have a family tree up through my
great-grandparents. I know the names and birth dates of all of them,
but Wanda BERGMAN, my great-grandmother on my mother's side remains
a mystery.

I believe she was born in Germany/Prussia around 1845 and was somehow
adopted by or raised by another family here in the US, perhaps in
Memphis, Tennessee. She married my great-grandfather, Lehman LOEB in
1860, and they lived in Little Rock Arkansas where my grandmother
was born. So I've always been curous about her story, where she came
from, and if I have other relatives out there on her side.

I live in Atlanta, GA and my native language is English. I also know
Spanish and French. I'm pretty good with the computer.

Thanks for any connections or suggestions anyone might have!

Judy Palmer, Atlanta, Georgia jurepalmer@gmail.com


German SIG #Germany INTRO- Looking for information on Wanda BERGMAN m. Lehman LOEB #germany

Judy Palmer <jurepalmer@...>
 

Hello GerSig,
I just joined the group. Other members of my extended family have
done quite a bit of research, so I have a family tree up through my
great-grandparents. I know the names and birth dates of all of them,
but Wanda BERGMAN, my great-grandmother on my mother's side remains
a mystery.

I believe she was born in Germany/Prussia around 1845 and was somehow
adopted by or raised by another family here in the US, perhaps in
Memphis, Tennessee. She married my great-grandfather, Lehman LOEB in
1860, and they lived in Little Rock Arkansas where my grandmother
was born. So I've always been curous about her story, where she came
from, and if I have other relatives out there on her side.

I live in Atlanta, GA and my native language is English. I also know
Spanish and French. I'm pretty good with the computer.

Thanks for any connections or suggestions anyone might have!

Judy Palmer, Atlanta, Georgia jurepalmer@gmail.com


Researchers in Iasi and Bucharest #romania

Marilyn Gelber
 

I am enquiring on behalf of a relative - she is looking for
trustworthy researchers in Iasi and Bucharest, to look at records in
those two cities and convey the results to her. Thank you -

Moderator's note: Please respond in private.

Marilyn G Gelber
marilyn.gelber@gmail.com


Romania SIG #Romania Researchers in Iasi and Bucharest #romania

Marilyn Gelber
 

I am enquiring on behalf of a relative - she is looking for
trustworthy researchers in Iasi and Bucharest, to look at records in
those two cities and convey the results to her. Thank you -

Moderator's note: Please respond in private.

Marilyn G Gelber
marilyn.gelber@gmail.com


Yom Hazikaron @ Avraham Shlomo Zalman Tzoref #general

Eli Rabinowitz
 

Avraham Shlomo Zalman Tzoref was the first victim of terror in modern Israel,
commemorated on Yom Hazikaron. Read more about him and his influence on the
Kedainiai KehilaLink:

http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/kedainiai/Zalman_Tzoref.html

Tzoref was my third great grandfather, and came >from Keidan in Lithuania to the
Holy Land in 1811, long before Herzl’s political Zionism.

Zalman Tzoref was inspired by the Vilna Gaon and in 1811 left Keidan, Lithuania for
Jerusalem where his mission was to rebuild the Ashkenazi community in the Old City.
Tzoref was murdered in 1851. Tzoref’s life and achievements are reflected through
his 20,000 strong Salomon descendants, who for 200 years have made their mark as
part of his enduring legacy. In 2011, exactly 200 years after Tzoref left Keidan,
I returned to the town, now called Kedainiai, and re-established my family
connections with his birthplace and rebuilt bridges with a local high school.

http://elirab.me/my-bond-with-atzalyno-gimnazija-a-school-in-kedainiai-2/

Eli Rabinowitz
Perth, Australia
elirab.me


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Yom Hazikaron @ Avraham Shlomo Zalman Tzoref #general

Eli Rabinowitz
 

Avraham Shlomo Zalman Tzoref was the first victim of terror in modern Israel,
commemorated on Yom Hazikaron. Read more about him and his influence on the
Kedainiai KehilaLink:

http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/kedainiai/Zalman_Tzoref.html

Tzoref was my third great grandfather, and came >from Keidan in Lithuania to the
Holy Land in 1811, long before Herzl’s political Zionism.

Zalman Tzoref was inspired by the Vilna Gaon and in 1811 left Keidan, Lithuania for
Jerusalem where his mission was to rebuild the Ashkenazi community in the Old City.
Tzoref was murdered in 1851. Tzoref’s life and achievements are reflected through
his 20,000 strong Salomon descendants, who for 200 years have made their mark as
part of his enduring legacy. In 2011, exactly 200 years after Tzoref left Keidan,
I returned to the town, now called Kedainiai, and re-established my family
connections with his birthplace and rebuilt bridges with a local high school.

http://elirab.me/my-bond-with-atzalyno-gimnazija-a-school-in-kedainiai-2/

Eli Rabinowitz
Perth, Australia
elirab.me


8 Tips to Make the Most of Federal Census Reports New JGSLI Video #general

Nolan Altman
 

The Jewish Genealogy Society of Long Island (JGSLI), winner of the IAJGS
2015 Outstanding Publication Award for its You Tube Channel, is pleased to
announce its latest video, "8 Tips to Make the Most of Federal Census Reports".

Genealogists should be very familiar with using federal census reports. We
typically review each one individually. However, rather than reviewing each
one separately, you might be able to learn more by looking at a cumulative
report of all available census reports. Here are 8 tips to make the most of
federal census reports.

You can access all 29 of our short instructional videos directly >from our
You Tube Channel at
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUV8xttIn93AwJX2_I0AIAg/feed or >from our
website http://jgsli.org/ If you have any comments or recommendations for
other topics, please let me know at mailto:past_pres@jgsli.org

Nolan Altman


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen 8 Tips to Make the Most of Federal Census Reports New JGSLI Video #general

Nolan Altman
 

The Jewish Genealogy Society of Long Island (JGSLI), winner of the IAJGS
2015 Outstanding Publication Award for its You Tube Channel, is pleased to
announce its latest video, "8 Tips to Make the Most of Federal Census Reports".

Genealogists should be very familiar with using federal census reports. We
typically review each one individually. However, rather than reviewing each
one separately, you might be able to learn more by looking at a cumulative
report of all available census reports. Here are 8 tips to make the most of
federal census reports.

You can access all 29 of our short instructional videos directly >from our
You Tube Channel at
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUV8xttIn93AwJX2_I0AIAg/feed or >from our
website http://jgsli.org/ If you have any comments or recommendations for
other topics, please let me know at mailto:past_pres@jgsli.org

Nolan Altman


Re: Marriage between uncle and niece? #hungary

siess@...
 

Jonathan,

Marriage between an uncle and a niece is not all that uncommon. In my
vast tree of people, I have at least three occasions where that did occur.
And this was in France and Germany. The bride and groom were Jewish. I also
was recently researching couples in my third book, where I found an uncle
and niece marriage, which illegal in New Orleans was performed in
Mississippi. The couple was not Jewish. When the widow went to inherit years
later, her marriage was declared null and void, and the deceased groom's
siblings were given the estate. Bottom line, prohibitions between marriage
of close relatives, with the exception of incest, was rather fluid in the
nineteenth century. In my own close family my gg-aunt's third husband, when
he became a widower, married his step-daughter, born of his late wife's
first marriage (shades of Woody Allen-Mia Farrow). The wedding could not be
performed in New York, where this was illegal, but was done in New Jersey,
where it was not illegal. So marriage laws vary >from state to state here,
and >from country to country . Cousin marriage in Louisiana was legal until
just before World War I. While Catholics did not promore cousin marriage, a
dispensation could most always be had for consanguinity of the second or
third degree. Cousin marriage of that sort was VERY common.

Carol Mills-Nichol
Madisonville, Louisiana

Moderator: Once again I must remind subscribers to include a substantive subject
line. It only takes a few seconds to do this when responding to messages received
in digest form but it makes life easier for all of us volunteer moderators.

-----Original Message-----
From: H-SIG digest
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 1:04 AM
To: h-sig digest recipients
Subject: h-sig digest: May 02, 2017

H-SIG Digest for Tuesday, May 02, 2017.

1. RE: Marriage between uncle and niece?
2. Wrong name on tombstones?
3. Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
4. Re: Mano LOFFLER >from Budapest - burial and address enquiry
5. Ostromok Family in Old Hungary
6. Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
7. Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Marriage between uncle and niece?
From: omri@netvision.net.il
Date: Tue, 02 May 2017 08:03:22 +0300
X-Message-Number: 1

Hello Jonathan,

I am not sure I can answer all your questions but I do want to point out
that I
seem to have the same case of an uncle marrying his niece in Pest or
Nagykanizsa,
Hungary in 1858.

Omri
Israel

-----Original Message-----
From: H-SIG [mailto:h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 12:45 AM
To: H-SIG <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Subject: [h-sig] Marriage between uncle and niece?

Hello,

This question might seem strange but, during my family history research, I
came across a marriage which intrigues me. It took place in the end of the
1860s in Kecskemet (Bacs-Kiskun County) and all the elements I could gather
lead me to believe that the groom and bride were uncle and niece (the man
apparently married his older sister's daughter).

I found out that the halakha doesn't prohibit such marriages but I was
wondering whether anyone else had come across similar situations. What would
have been the reason(s) for such a union? Was it common in Hungarian Jewish
communities in the 19th century? Though it was not forbidden, did the bride
and groom need a permission >from the local rabbi?
I imagine that the state laws would have prohibited it, so did the family
need to apply for a special permission >from the authorities? Would this
document be available in the National/County Archives?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!

Best,

Jonathan Vandewiele

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Wrong name on tombstones?
From: vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 13:28:18 +0000 (UTC)
X-Message-Number: 2

Hello again,

During my research, I have encountered another problem which puzzled me and
would like to ask for your feedbacks and advice.
As I was looking for the graves of relatives in Budapest's Kozma utca
cemetery, I saw the grave of Jakab Pfeifer which intrigued me. >from my
research, I am convinced that he was the son of Gaspar/Gershon Pfeifer, and
this is the name which appears on Jakab's civil death record. However, on
his tombstone, it is written "Ya'akov ben Moshe" and not "Ya'akov ben
Gershon".
Is it possible that a mistake was made while building this grave (all of
Jakab's siblings's records mention Gershon as their father, there is no
mention of a Moshe)? I always thought that, in case of discrepancies, the
tombstones and religious records were more reliable than the civil records.
Am I mistaken in making this assumption? Didn't the Chevra Kadisha check the
religious records of the deceased? Has anyone else encountered similar
situations?

Thank you for your help.
Best regards,

Jonathan Vandewiele

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
From: vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 13:09:18 +0000 (UTC)
X-Message-Number: 3

Thank you all very much for your replies! I thought that I had missed
something and was following the wrong track but, thanks to your feedbacks, I
know now that it is not the case and that it was not an uncommon type of
union in those times.

Kind regards,

Jonathan Vandewiele

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Mano LOFFLER >from Budapest - burial and address enquiry
From: logan.kleinwaks@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 09:58:05 -0400
X-Message-Number: 4

Yohanan Loeffler asked how to find the address in Budapest of Mano
Loeffler. Many Budapest and all-Hungary directories are viewable
online and can be searched to find addresses (and occupations, or
searched by address to find names, etc.). In this case, go to
http://genealogyindexer.org, type "loffler mano"~3 in the search box
(exactly like that, it will allow the words to appear in any order and
with up to two other words in between, such as additional given names
or title), and press the Search button. Each result includes a link
to view the corresponding scanned directory page. Most of the results
for this search come >from directories digitized by Hungaricana, where
they can also be searched, but some also come >from a directory I
digitized -- by searching at genealogyindexer.org, you can
simultaneously search them all (and Hungarian directories, yizkor
books, etc. >from other sources). It is not necessary to change the
Any Place search option to Hungary for this search, but might be for
others, if too many non-Hungarian matches are returned.

Logan Kleinwaks
kleinwaks@alumni.princeton.edu
near Washington, D.C.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Ostromok Family in Old Hungary
From: keith_oliphant_8@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 16:09:28 +0000
X-Message-Number: 5

I have been advised by Mr Harvey Kaplan, Director, Scottish Jewish Archives
Centre, Garnethill Synagogue, Glasgow, to post the following information
here in the hope that someone will be able to assist us in going forward
with the research of my wife Rose's ancestor >from Hungary. My wife Rose has
been trying to research her fathers ancestry which originates in Hungary.
His name was Joeszeph Deszo Osztromok, born in a village called Bukkosd in
the County of Baranya (South western Hungary). We believe that Joe's
parents were married in Budapest. I was speaking with a young man at the
Jewish Family History post at the Who Do You Think You Are Live show a few
weeks ago & he advised me that with the following information I gave him,
that his grandparents may have been Jewish.
When checking the FamilySearch website of the Church of Latter Day Saints in
Edinburgh, she found the name Osztromok is found in the Slovakia Church and
Synagogue Books, 1592-1910 in a place called Pa?ková, Ro?òava, Slovakia.
There is nothing in the Hungarian records regarding the name Osztromok via
the Church's website.
My wife was wondering if the reason her father did not know his
grandparents, was that they were disappointed that his father had married a
Roman Catholic lady. Joes father was Mihaly Osztromok & he had 2 brothers.
One of them changed his name to Oltai in Budapest. We do not know where the
other brother stayed either.
There was also an Anna Osztromok who immigrated to America in 1905 aged
17>from a place called Klunoz which is on an old map of Hungary but not a new
map.
My wife is wondering if there is a way to find out if the Family were Jewish
from Slovakia. The young man at the show advised me that most of the records
were sent >from Austria to the different countries after the disbandment of
the Austria/Hungary Empire which, the part where these names & places are
actually are a part of the old Empire.
Sorry for all the information for a small question really but is there a way
we can find out if these people were of Jewish Extraction and were
excommunicated because of the marriage to a non-believer?

Kind Regards Keith & Rose Oliphant

keith_oliphant_8@hotmail.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
From: mary@comeracing.com
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 06:58:48 +1000
X-Message-Number: 6

My aunt married her uncle (my father's sister married her mother's
brother) in 1925 in Berehove, Hungary. Even though they were uncle and
niece, there was only seven years difference in age. Apparently the
family was not eager to see the marriage go ahead but it was accepted
eventually and they seemed to have no problem going ahead with the
marriage legally

Mary Blumenstein
Melbourne, Australia


Researching: BAUM/Svidnik, Satoraljaujhely, Hungary. BERNER/KATZ/
Beregovo,Ukraine.BLUMENSTEIN/IvanoFrankovsk,Ukraine.GOLDFARB/MONCIASZ
Parczew,Poland.HELLINGER/Michalovce,Kosice,Slovakia.NEUMAN/NEUMANN/
Kvakovce,Michalovce, Slovakia



On 2/05/2017 2:50 PM, Elizabeth Long bethlong3@yahoo.com wrote:
Such marriages were permitted by Jewish law in Hungary, but never
permitted by Christian churches (either Roman Catholic or Calvinist
Protestant) At a certain point (around 1905?), Hungary forbade uncle/niece
marriages under civil law, and this applied to all, regardless of religion


Beth Long
Reno NV




________________________________
From: "Jonathan Vandewiele vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com"
<h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
To: H-SIG <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 9:38 PM
Subject: [h-sig] Marriage between uncle and niece?



Hello,


This question might seem strange but, during my family history research, I
came across a marriage which intrigues me. It took place in the end of the
1860s in Kecskemet (Bacs-Kiskun County) and all the elements I could
gather lead me to believe that the groom and bride were uncle and niece
(the man apparently married his older sister's daughter).




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
From: tomk@ecologicaltech.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 18:13:31 -0400
X-Message-Number: 7

keep in mind that things weren't always as they are today.

in the 1860s, marriages were registered by the "churches" on behalf of the
state, and therefore *all* marriages needed permission >from the local rabbi.

civil prohibitions probably didn't exist prior to 1895, just as they didn't
in the united states prior to the eugenics movement in the 1920's. (and
there still isn't a uniformity of laws across the usa:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state
).

the mormons have a microfilm of the kecskemet jewish records, 1932-1895, as
[film #642857, Items 1-3], according to the catalogue available at
familysearch.org, by the way.


...... tom klein, toronto


vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com wrote:

This question might seem strange but, during my family history research, I
came across a marriage which intrigues me. It took place in the end of the
1860s in Kecskemet (Bacs-Kiskun County) and all the elements I could gather
lead me to believe that the groom and bride were uncle and niece (the man
apparently married his older sister's daughter).

I found out that the halakha doesn't prohibit such marriages but I was
wondering whether anyone else had come across similar situations. What
would have been the reason(s) for such a union? Was it common in Hungarian
Jewish communities in the 19th century? Though it was not forbidden, did
the bride and groom need a permission >from the local rabbi?
I imagine that the state laws would have prohibited it, so did the family
need to apply for a special permission >from the authorities? Would this
document be available in the National/County Archives?


---

END OF DIGEST

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Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Marriage between uncle and niece? #hungary

siess@...
 

Jonathan,

Marriage between an uncle and a niece is not all that uncommon. In my
vast tree of people, I have at least three occasions where that did occur.
And this was in France and Germany. The bride and groom were Jewish. I also
was recently researching couples in my third book, where I found an uncle
and niece marriage, which illegal in New Orleans was performed in
Mississippi. The couple was not Jewish. When the widow went to inherit years
later, her marriage was declared null and void, and the deceased groom's
siblings were given the estate. Bottom line, prohibitions between marriage
of close relatives, with the exception of incest, was rather fluid in the
nineteenth century. In my own close family my gg-aunt's third husband, when
he became a widower, married his step-daughter, born of his late wife's
first marriage (shades of Woody Allen-Mia Farrow). The wedding could not be
performed in New York, where this was illegal, but was done in New Jersey,
where it was not illegal. So marriage laws vary >from state to state here,
and >from country to country . Cousin marriage in Louisiana was legal until
just before World War I. While Catholics did not promore cousin marriage, a
dispensation could most always be had for consanguinity of the second or
third degree. Cousin marriage of that sort was VERY common.

Carol Mills-Nichol
Madisonville, Louisiana

Moderator: Once again I must remind subscribers to include a substantive subject
line. It only takes a few seconds to do this when responding to messages received
in digest form but it makes life easier for all of us volunteer moderators.

-----Original Message-----
From: H-SIG digest
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 1:04 AM
To: h-sig digest recipients
Subject: h-sig digest: May 02, 2017

H-SIG Digest for Tuesday, May 02, 2017.

1. RE: Marriage between uncle and niece?
2. Wrong name on tombstones?
3. Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
4. Re: Mano LOFFLER >from Budapest - burial and address enquiry
5. Ostromok Family in Old Hungary
6. Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
7. Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Marriage between uncle and niece?
From: omri@netvision.net.il
Date: Tue, 02 May 2017 08:03:22 +0300
X-Message-Number: 1

Hello Jonathan,

I am not sure I can answer all your questions but I do want to point out
that I
seem to have the same case of an uncle marrying his niece in Pest or
Nagykanizsa,
Hungary in 1858.

Omri
Israel

-----Original Message-----
From: H-SIG [mailto:h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 12:45 AM
To: H-SIG <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Subject: [h-sig] Marriage between uncle and niece?

Hello,

This question might seem strange but, during my family history research, I
came across a marriage which intrigues me. It took place in the end of the
1860s in Kecskemet (Bacs-Kiskun County) and all the elements I could gather
lead me to believe that the groom and bride were uncle and niece (the man
apparently married his older sister's daughter).

I found out that the halakha doesn't prohibit such marriages but I was
wondering whether anyone else had come across similar situations. What would
have been the reason(s) for such a union? Was it common in Hungarian Jewish
communities in the 19th century? Though it was not forbidden, did the bride
and groom need a permission >from the local rabbi?
I imagine that the state laws would have prohibited it, so did the family
need to apply for a special permission >from the authorities? Would this
document be available in the National/County Archives?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!

Best,

Jonathan Vandewiele

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Wrong name on tombstones?
From: vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 13:28:18 +0000 (UTC)
X-Message-Number: 2

Hello again,

During my research, I have encountered another problem which puzzled me and
would like to ask for your feedbacks and advice.
As I was looking for the graves of relatives in Budapest's Kozma utca
cemetery, I saw the grave of Jakab Pfeifer which intrigued me. >from my
research, I am convinced that he was the son of Gaspar/Gershon Pfeifer, and
this is the name which appears on Jakab's civil death record. However, on
his tombstone, it is written "Ya'akov ben Moshe" and not "Ya'akov ben
Gershon".
Is it possible that a mistake was made while building this grave (all of
Jakab's siblings's records mention Gershon as their father, there is no
mention of a Moshe)? I always thought that, in case of discrepancies, the
tombstones and religious records were more reliable than the civil records.
Am I mistaken in making this assumption? Didn't the Chevra Kadisha check the
religious records of the deceased? Has anyone else encountered similar
situations?

Thank you for your help.
Best regards,

Jonathan Vandewiele

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
From: vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 13:09:18 +0000 (UTC)
X-Message-Number: 3

Thank you all very much for your replies! I thought that I had missed
something and was following the wrong track but, thanks to your feedbacks, I
know now that it is not the case and that it was not an uncommon type of
union in those times.

Kind regards,

Jonathan Vandewiele

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Mano LOFFLER >from Budapest - burial and address enquiry
From: logan.kleinwaks@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 09:58:05 -0400
X-Message-Number: 4

Yohanan Loeffler asked how to find the address in Budapest of Mano
Loeffler. Many Budapest and all-Hungary directories are viewable
online and can be searched to find addresses (and occupations, or
searched by address to find names, etc.). In this case, go to
http://genealogyindexer.org, type "loffler mano"~3 in the search box
(exactly like that, it will allow the words to appear in any order and
with up to two other words in between, such as additional given names
or title), and press the Search button. Each result includes a link
to view the corresponding scanned directory page. Most of the results
for this search come >from directories digitized by Hungaricana, where
they can also be searched, but some also come >from a directory I
digitized -- by searching at genealogyindexer.org, you can
simultaneously search them all (and Hungarian directories, yizkor
books, etc. >from other sources). It is not necessary to change the
Any Place search option to Hungary for this search, but might be for
others, if too many non-Hungarian matches are returned.

Logan Kleinwaks
kleinwaks@alumni.princeton.edu
near Washington, D.C.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Ostromok Family in Old Hungary
From: keith_oliphant_8@hotmail.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 16:09:28 +0000
X-Message-Number: 5

I have been advised by Mr Harvey Kaplan, Director, Scottish Jewish Archives
Centre, Garnethill Synagogue, Glasgow, to post the following information
here in the hope that someone will be able to assist us in going forward
with the research of my wife Rose's ancestor >from Hungary. My wife Rose has
been trying to research her fathers ancestry which originates in Hungary.
His name was Joeszeph Deszo Osztromok, born in a village called Bukkosd in
the County of Baranya (South western Hungary). We believe that Joe's
parents were married in Budapest. I was speaking with a young man at the
Jewish Family History post at the Who Do You Think You Are Live show a few
weeks ago & he advised me that with the following information I gave him,
that his grandparents may have been Jewish.
When checking the FamilySearch website of the Church of Latter Day Saints in
Edinburgh, she found the name Osztromok is found in the Slovakia Church and
Synagogue Books, 1592-1910 in a place called Pa?ková, Ro?òava, Slovakia.
There is nothing in the Hungarian records regarding the name Osztromok via
the Church's website.
My wife was wondering if the reason her father did not know his
grandparents, was that they were disappointed that his father had married a
Roman Catholic lady. Joes father was Mihaly Osztromok & he had 2 brothers.
One of them changed his name to Oltai in Budapest. We do not know where the
other brother stayed either.
There was also an Anna Osztromok who immigrated to America in 1905 aged
17>from a place called Klunoz which is on an old map of Hungary but not a new
map.
My wife is wondering if there is a way to find out if the Family were Jewish
from Slovakia. The young man at the show advised me that most of the records
were sent >from Austria to the different countries after the disbandment of
the Austria/Hungary Empire which, the part where these names & places are
actually are a part of the old Empire.
Sorry for all the information for a small question really but is there a way
we can find out if these people were of Jewish Extraction and were
excommunicated because of the marriage to a non-believer?

Kind Regards Keith & Rose Oliphant

keith_oliphant_8@hotmail.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
From: mary@comeracing.com
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 06:58:48 +1000
X-Message-Number: 6

My aunt married her uncle (my father's sister married her mother's
brother) in 1925 in Berehove, Hungary. Even though they were uncle and
niece, there was only seven years difference in age. Apparently the
family was not eager to see the marriage go ahead but it was accepted
eventually and they seemed to have no problem going ahead with the
marriage legally

Mary Blumenstein
Melbourne, Australia


Researching: BAUM/Svidnik, Satoraljaujhely, Hungary. BERNER/KATZ/
Beregovo,Ukraine.BLUMENSTEIN/IvanoFrankovsk,Ukraine.GOLDFARB/MONCIASZ
Parczew,Poland.HELLINGER/Michalovce,Kosice,Slovakia.NEUMAN/NEUMANN/
Kvakovce,Michalovce, Slovakia



On 2/05/2017 2:50 PM, Elizabeth Long bethlong3@yahoo.com wrote:
Such marriages were permitted by Jewish law in Hungary, but never
permitted by Christian churches (either Roman Catholic or Calvinist
Protestant) At a certain point (around 1905?), Hungary forbade uncle/niece
marriages under civil law, and this applied to all, regardless of religion


Beth Long
Reno NV




________________________________
From: "Jonathan Vandewiele vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com"
<h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
To: H-SIG <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Monday, May 1, 2017 9:38 PM
Subject: [h-sig] Marriage between uncle and niece?



Hello,


This question might seem strange but, during my family history research, I
came across a marriage which intrigues me. It took place in the end of the
1860s in Kecskemet (Bacs-Kiskun County) and all the elements I could
gather lead me to believe that the groom and bride were uncle and niece
(the man apparently married his older sister's daughter).




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Marriage between uncle and niece?
From: tomk@ecologicaltech.com
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 18:13:31 -0400
X-Message-Number: 7

keep in mind that things weren't always as they are today.

in the 1860s, marriages were registered by the "churches" on behalf of the
state, and therefore *all* marriages needed permission >from the local rabbi.

civil prohibitions probably didn't exist prior to 1895, just as they didn't
in the united states prior to the eugenics movement in the 1920's. (and
there still isn't a uniformity of laws across the usa:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state
).

the mormons have a microfilm of the kecskemet jewish records, 1932-1895, as
[film #642857, Items 1-3], according to the catalogue available at
familysearch.org, by the way.


...... tom klein, toronto


vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com wrote:

This question might seem strange but, during my family history research, I
came across a marriage which intrigues me. It took place in the end of the
1860s in Kecskemet (Bacs-Kiskun County) and all the elements I could gather
lead me to believe that the groom and bride were uncle and niece (the man
apparently married his older sister's daughter).

I found out that the halakha doesn't prohibit such marriages but I was
wondering whether anyone else had come across similar situations. What
would have been the reason(s) for such a union? Was it common in Hungarian
Jewish communities in the 19th century? Though it was not forbidden, did
the bride and groom need a permission >from the local rabbi?
I imagine that the state laws would have prohibited it, so did the family
need to apply for a special permission >from the authorities? Would this
document be available in the National/County Archives?


---

END OF DIGEST

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Names on Tombstones ( plain text) #hungary

sujo1@...
 

Shalom siggers,

Hebrew names on tombstones and in burial records are invaluable in tracing
an ancestors name but there are problems. I have seen a few in my own
family. Many tombstones have lost all writing due to acid rain. The
replacements, if they are replaced, often omit the Hebrew. And children give
the chevra kadisha and the cemetery authorities wrong Hebrew names. It
upsets me to know that future generations here in Israel will think my
father's Hebrew name was Ben, and not Baruch. I have seen similar mistakes
in Australia, and I am sure that this is a problem for all genealogists.

Joe Gilad


Hungary SIG #Hungary Names on Tombstones ( plain text) #hungary

sujo1@...
 

Shalom siggers,

Hebrew names on tombstones and in burial records are invaluable in tracing
an ancestors name but there are problems. I have seen a few in my own
family. Many tombstones have lost all writing due to acid rain. The
replacements, if they are replaced, often omit the Hebrew. And children give
the chevra kadisha and the cemetery authorities wrong Hebrew names. It
upsets me to know that future generations here in Israel will think my
father's Hebrew name was Ben, and not Baruch. I have seen similar mistakes
in Australia, and I am sure that this is a problem for all genealogists.

Joe Gilad


Mano LOFFLER from Budapest #hungary

Yohanan
 

I would like to thank the wonderful researchers that answered my enquiry
about my great uncle Mano LOFFLER.
Both Sandor Bacskai and Rabbi Joel Meisels found the exact burial location
at the Orthodox Cemetery ("Granatos street cemetery")
in Budapest 10. Many thanks!
Sandor even sent me image of the actual cemetery burial registration and
found out one case where the address of Rumbach Synagogue at Rumbach u, 13
served also as a residential address, so it is possible that uncle Mano
indeed lived there.
I learnt >from Beth Long and >from Caryn that Oroklet covers only the Neolog
cemetery, not the adjacent orthodox one.
Many Thanks to Tom Reisner who found for me in MACSA the death registration
of Mano's mother, Erzsebet LOFFLER, my Great grandmother, and I found out
where she lived in Ujpest and when she died .
Thanks to Logan Kleinwaks who suggested to find address in Budapest via
genealogyindexer.org

Looking forward for my short Budapest visit!

Yohanan Loeffler
Melbourne Australia


Hungary SIG #Hungary Mano LOFFLER from Budapest #hungary

Yohanan
 

I would like to thank the wonderful researchers that answered my enquiry
about my great uncle Mano LOFFLER.
Both Sandor Bacskai and Rabbi Joel Meisels found the exact burial location
at the Orthodox Cemetery ("Granatos street cemetery")
in Budapest 10. Many thanks!
Sandor even sent me image of the actual cemetery burial registration and
found out one case where the address of Rumbach Synagogue at Rumbach u, 13
served also as a residential address, so it is possible that uncle Mano
indeed lived there.
I learnt >from Beth Long and >from Caryn that Oroklet covers only the Neolog
cemetery, not the adjacent orthodox one.
Many Thanks to Tom Reisner who found for me in MACSA the death registration
of Mano's mother, Erzsebet LOFFLER, my Great grandmother, and I found out
where she lived in Ujpest and when she died .
Thanks to Logan Kleinwaks who suggested to find address in Budapest via
genealogyindexer.org

Looking forward for my short Budapest visit!

Yohanan Loeffler
Melbourne Australia


May's JGS' events reminder.(NB. New premises are at The Society Of Genealogists) #unitedkingdom

Raymond Montanjees
 

Fri 5th. 10.30-3pm. Library Session. Contact Lydia Collins. To be held at=
=20
our new HQ - the above mentioned Society Of Genealogists.

Sun 7th. 2.30-5pm (ish). South East Essex Group. Jeanette presentation=20
"Searching for Ancestors outside of UK" Contact Anne Marcus. =20
avoceta@hotmail.com Members of JGSGB are free, all others =A33 each. To=
be held this time at=20
the Balmoral Community Centre, Westcliff. Essex.

Sun 14th. 3-6pm. AGM at the The Society Of Genealogists.=20
All JGSGB members are invited to the AGM to be held at 14 Charterhouse=20
Buildings, Goswell Road, London EC1M 7BA=20
We will welcome speaker Anne Webber, one of our Vice-Presidents. She was=
=20
an early member of the Society and is Founder and Co-Chair of the Commiss=
ion=20
for Looted Art in Europe (CLAE). Anne will be talking about the work of=
=20
the Commission and the relevance of genealogical research to this work. =
=20
Contact JGS' Secretary Martin Hill at martin.hill44@btinternet.com =20

Wed 17th. An all day event. The Leeds Regional Group Cambridge Project- =
a=20
visit to the American Cemetery outside Cambridge. Contact : =20
leedsregion@jgsgb.org.uk for full details.

Thur 18th. 7.30-9.00pm. An Education Evening ' Google for Genealogy '.=20
Contact: Jeanette Rosenberg re her Webinar session. Contact :=20
jeanette.r.rosenberg@googlemail.com

Sun 21st. The 15th Annual Northern Conference (MANCHESTER) Contact:=20
Anthony Rosenthal at manchester.genealogy@gmail.com

Sun 21st 1-5pm. The (combined) Dutch&Sephardi Special Interest Group.=20
Speaker to be confirmed - if at all. If not, then just the regular always=
=20
welcome WORKSHOP. Contact me - Raymond Montanjees - at raymusik@aol.com=
To be=20
held at the SOG in the Lecture Room.

Sun 21st 2-5pm. A Library Session. Contact : Lydia Collins at the SOG.

For Security reasons, please submit your name if you hope to attend.


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom May's JGS' events reminder.(NB. New premises are at The Society Of Genealogists) #unitedkingdom

Raymond Montanjees
 

Fri 5th. 10.30-3pm. Library Session. Contact Lydia Collins. To be held at=
=20
our new HQ - the above mentioned Society Of Genealogists.

Sun 7th. 2.30-5pm (ish). South East Essex Group. Jeanette presentation=20
"Searching for Ancestors outside of UK" Contact Anne Marcus. =20
avoceta@hotmail.com Members of JGSGB are free, all others =A33 each. To=
be held this time at=20
the Balmoral Community Centre, Westcliff. Essex.

Sun 14th. 3-6pm. AGM at the The Society Of Genealogists.=20
All JGSGB members are invited to the AGM to be held at 14 Charterhouse=20
Buildings, Goswell Road, London EC1M 7BA=20
We will welcome speaker Anne Webber, one of our Vice-Presidents. She was=
=20
an early member of the Society and is Founder and Co-Chair of the Commiss=
ion=20
for Looted Art in Europe (CLAE). Anne will be talking about the work of=
=20
the Commission and the relevance of genealogical research to this work. =
=20
Contact JGS' Secretary Martin Hill at martin.hill44@btinternet.com =20

Wed 17th. An all day event. The Leeds Regional Group Cambridge Project- =
a=20
visit to the American Cemetery outside Cambridge. Contact : =20
leedsregion@jgsgb.org.uk for full details.

Thur 18th. 7.30-9.00pm. An Education Evening ' Google for Genealogy '.=20
Contact: Jeanette Rosenberg re her Webinar session. Contact :=20
jeanette.r.rosenberg@googlemail.com

Sun 21st. The 15th Annual Northern Conference (MANCHESTER) Contact:=20
Anthony Rosenthal at manchester.genealogy@gmail.com

Sun 21st 1-5pm. The (combined) Dutch&Sephardi Special Interest Group.=20
Speaker to be confirmed - if at all. If not, then just the regular always=
=20
welcome WORKSHOP. Contact me - Raymond Montanjees - at raymusik@aol.com=
To be=20
held at the SOG in the Lecture Room.

Sun 21st 2-5pm. A Library Session. Contact : Lydia Collins at the SOG.

For Security reasons, please submit your name if you hope to attend.


Sheila Salo retires as JRI-Poland treasurer #general

Stanley Diamond
 

Dear friends of JRI-Poland.

After more than 20 years of outstanding devoted service, our
treasurer Sheila Salo has decided to retire. As one of the
staunch backbones of the JRI-Poland team since the beginning,
Sheila has contributed to our success on many levels and has
been the welcoming link of our organization with the many
supporters with whom she has come into contact and given
loving attention on a daily basis.

On behalf of my colleagues on the JRI-Poland executive committee
and board and all of you who look to JRI-Poland as "your"
organization in the research of your roots in Poland, we extend to
Sheila a hearty Yasher Koach for the superb role she has played
over these two decades.

On a personal level, I must add that working closely with Sheila
has been a true pleasure. It is impossible to put into words the
feeling of comfort and confidence that has characterized our
relationship. I will truly miss that.

I also want to add a word of thanks to JRI-Poland co-founder
Steve Zedeck who first "discovered" Sheila and brought her on
board way back in our organization's infancy.

Finally, I want to welcome Dennis Gries of Sarasota, Florida
to the team as our new treasurer. Dennis' name and contacts
now appear on our website. Dennis will be more formally
introduced in the next few days.

Stanley Diamond
Executive Director
For the board of Jewish Records Indexing - Poland


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Sheila Salo retires as JRI-Poland treasurer #general

Stanley Diamond
 

Dear friends of JRI-Poland.

After more than 20 years of outstanding devoted service, our
treasurer Sheila Salo has decided to retire. As one of the
staunch backbones of the JRI-Poland team since the beginning,
Sheila has contributed to our success on many levels and has
been the welcoming link of our organization with the many
supporters with whom she has come into contact and given
loving attention on a daily basis.

On behalf of my colleagues on the JRI-Poland executive committee
and board and all of you who look to JRI-Poland as "your"
organization in the research of your roots in Poland, we extend to
Sheila a hearty Yasher Koach for the superb role she has played
over these two decades.

On a personal level, I must add that working closely with Sheila
has been a true pleasure. It is impossible to put into words the
feeling of comfort and confidence that has characterized our
relationship. I will truly miss that.

I also want to add a word of thanks to JRI-Poland co-founder
Steve Zedeck who first "discovered" Sheila and brought her on
board way back in our organization's infancy.

Finally, I want to welcome Dennis Gries of Sarasota, Florida
to the team as our new treasurer. Dennis' name and contacts
now appear on our website. Dennis will be more formally
introduced in the next few days.

Stanley Diamond
Executive Director
For the board of Jewish Records Indexing - Poland


Re: Marriage between uncle and niece? #hungary

tom
 

keep in mind that things weren't always as they are today.

in the 1860s, marriages were registered by the "churches" on behalf of the state, and therefore *all* marriages needed permission >from the local rabbi.

civil prohibitions probably didn't exist prior to 1895, just as they didn't in the united states prior to the eugenics movement in the 1920's. (and there still isn't a uniformity of laws across the usa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state ).

the mormons have a microfilm of the kecskemet jewish records, 1932-1895, as [film #642857, Items 1-3], according to the catalogue available at familysearch.org, by the way.


....... tom klein, toronto

vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com wrote:

This question might seem strange but, during my family history research, I came across a marriage which intrigues me. It took place in the end of the 1860s in Kecskemet (Bacs-Kiskun County) and all the elements I could gather lead me to believe that the groom and bride were uncle and niece (the man apparently married his older sister's daughter).

I found out that the halakha doesn't prohibit such marriages but I was wondering whether anyone else had come across similar situations. What would have been the reason(s) for such a union? Was it common in Hungarian Jewish communities in the 19th century? Though it was not forbidden, did the bride and groom need a permission >from the local rabbi?
I imagine that the state laws would have prohibited it, so did the family need to apply for a special permission >from the authorities? Would this document be available in the National/County Archives?


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Marriage between uncle and niece? #hungary

tom
 

keep in mind that things weren't always as they are today.

in the 1860s, marriages were registered by the "churches" on behalf of the state, and therefore *all* marriages needed permission >from the local rabbi.

civil prohibitions probably didn't exist prior to 1895, just as they didn't in the united states prior to the eugenics movement in the 1920's. (and there still isn't a uniformity of laws across the usa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state ).

the mormons have a microfilm of the kecskemet jewish records, 1932-1895, as [film #642857, Items 1-3], according to the catalogue available at familysearch.org, by the way.


....... tom klein, toronto

vdw_jonathan@yahoo.com wrote:

This question might seem strange but, during my family history research, I came across a marriage which intrigues me. It took place in the end of the 1860s in Kecskemet (Bacs-Kiskun County) and all the elements I could gather lead me to believe that the groom and bride were uncle and niece (the man apparently married his older sister's daughter).

I found out that the halakha doesn't prohibit such marriages but I was wondering whether anyone else had come across similar situations. What would have been the reason(s) for such a union? Was it common in Hungarian Jewish communities in the 19th century? Though it was not forbidden, did the bride and groom need a permission >from the local rabbi?
I imagine that the state laws would have prohibited it, so did the family need to apply for a special permission >from the authorities? Would this document be available in the National/County Archives?

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