Date   

Movies "Rivermen" (Tutajosok) - about the 1882 trial of Rutenian Jews... #hungary

Randell B. Weiss <rbweiss@...>
 

There is a movie about Jewish lumberjacks called "Memoirs of a River
(The Raftsmen)". I assume you are referring to the same movie. The
story is about the Tiszaeszlar blood libel, a fictional version of an
event which is recounted in Raphael Patai's THE JEWS OF HUNGARY, pages
288, 349-53, and 541.
I don't own that book, so I don't have any more detail.

Randy Weiss
Medford, Massachusetts
rbweiss@...

Researching:
FISCHER - Goncruszka & Kazincbarcika, Hungary; Starna (formerly
Sajoszarnya)
& Kosice, Slovakia; Memphis, Tennessee.
GOODMAN - Zamutov (formerly Zamatof), Slovakia; Cleveland, Ohio.
KOHN - Goncruszka & Kazincbarcika, Hungary.
KOLLER - Egerszog & Tornanadaska, Hungary; Kosice & Plesivec
(formerly Pelsoc), Slovakia.
STARK - Komjati (formerly Komjan), Hungary; Jablonov nad Turnou (formerly
Turno), Slovakia; Cleveland, Ohio.
WEISS - Cleveland, Ohio (ancestors came >from a village in Hungary,
probably Zemplin county, but I don't know where).
WEISZ - Aggtelek, Hungary; Plesivec, Slovakia.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Movies "Rivermen" (Tutajosok) - about the 1882 trial of Rutenian Jews... #hungary

Randell B. Weiss <rbweiss@...>
 

There is a movie about Jewish lumberjacks called "Memoirs of a River
(The Raftsmen)". I assume you are referring to the same movie. The
story is about the Tiszaeszlar blood libel, a fictional version of an
event which is recounted in Raphael Patai's THE JEWS OF HUNGARY, pages
288, 349-53, and 541.
I don't own that book, so I don't have any more detail.

Randy Weiss
Medford, Massachusetts
rbweiss@...

Researching:
FISCHER - Goncruszka & Kazincbarcika, Hungary; Starna (formerly
Sajoszarnya)
& Kosice, Slovakia; Memphis, Tennessee.
GOODMAN - Zamutov (formerly Zamatof), Slovakia; Cleveland, Ohio.
KOHN - Goncruszka & Kazincbarcika, Hungary.
KOLLER - Egerszog & Tornanadaska, Hungary; Kosice & Plesivec
(formerly Pelsoc), Slovakia.
STARK - Komjati (formerly Komjan), Hungary; Jablonov nad Turnou (formerly
Turno), Slovakia; Cleveland, Ohio.
WEISS - Cleveland, Ohio (ancestors came >from a village in Hungary,
probably Zemplin county, but I don't know where).
WEISZ - Aggtelek, Hungary; Plesivec, Slovakia.


messages from Louis #hungary

Louis Schonfeld <lmagyar@...>
 

Messages or questions that are addressed to one respondent should be send to
that person only. Also, when responding to an individual please look in the
"To.." box of your e-mail program to ascertain that the message is going to
one person and not the entire sig.

On a more positive note. We are up to 299 subscribers. It would be great to
have at least 300 subscribers on February 7th, if not earlier.

Lynn Saul, one of our subscribers (and daughter of Ruth Saul, another
subscriber) has published a booklet of poetry titled, "I Am Trying to
Understand" - "Jewish Roots in Hungary - Budapest, Cegled, Nyiregyhaza,
Porosko, Satoraljaujhely - July 1997". The twenty page booklet includes
rich, emotional poetry with such titles as Paprika, In the Ujhely Archives,
and Koszi, Koszi. These poems were inspired by her experiences during a
roots tour I led in the summer of 1997. In Lynn's words: "In the summer of
1997..went to Hungary.. to follow up on family stories and genealogical
research...Nicholas Friedman ...had come to this country..and returned to
Hungary..The search for the Hungarian Friedmans created the poems in this
book."

The price is $4 and available by mail from:
Jumping Cholla Press
647 N. Ninth Ave.
Tucson AZ 85705

Please visit our website at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/Hungary/


Hungary SIG #Hungary messages from Louis #hungary

Louis Schonfeld <lmagyar@...>
 

Messages or questions that are addressed to one respondent should be send to
that person only. Also, when responding to an individual please look in the
"To.." box of your e-mail program to ascertain that the message is going to
one person and not the entire sig.

On a more positive note. We are up to 299 subscribers. It would be great to
have at least 300 subscribers on February 7th, if not earlier.

Lynn Saul, one of our subscribers (and daughter of Ruth Saul, another
subscriber) has published a booklet of poetry titled, "I Am Trying to
Understand" - "Jewish Roots in Hungary - Budapest, Cegled, Nyiregyhaza,
Porosko, Satoraljaujhely - July 1997". The twenty page booklet includes
rich, emotional poetry with such titles as Paprika, In the Ujhely Archives,
and Koszi, Koszi. These poems were inspired by her experiences during a
roots tour I led in the summer of 1997. In Lynn's words: "In the summer of
1997..went to Hungary.. to follow up on family stories and genealogical
research...Nicholas Friedman ...had come to this country..and returned to
Hungary..The search for the Hungarian Friedmans created the poems in this
book."

The price is $4 and available by mail from:
Jumping Cholla Press
647 N. Ninth Ave.
Tucson AZ 85705

Please visit our website at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/Hungary/


Betrayals and Ethics #latvia

K.& L. Bertelsen <klb@...>
 

Dear Litvaksig and Latviasig members

This will probably be my last posting, but I feel you should all be warned
that what happened to me could easily also happen to you.

My name and that of my husband have been used without our consent and
without our prior knowledge by a third party in letters which have been
sent to a number of families in Paris, and, perhaps elsewhere as well, in
which I was described as this person's researcher and in which she quoted
details of my immediate family (not hers) and requested recipients to
forward details of their families to her.

Despite my protests about this, this person then proceeded to contact my
recently rediscovered cousins, who live in the same continent and in the
same city as her, pretending to be a relative, and obtained >from them
information, names and addresses of other cousins, etc.

I had previously pleaded with her to allow me and my cousin to rebuild
contact with our cousins (second cousins of my late Mama Nana), with whom
contact had been lost perhaps 70 years earlier. She ignored my requests
and continued to follow up whatever information and contacts she was given
and refused to stop her deceitful activities and also flatly refused to
pass on this information to me or my cousin and allow us to rebuild a
relationship with our elderly, frail and seriously ill relatives on several
continents.

When I again protested, this person promptly hijacked the group which I had
founded about 18 months earlier, and to which I had devoted my energies,
and forced me off the group, subjected me to threatening phone calls (from
overseas) and email messages and absolutely refused to leave our family
follow-ups to my cousin and I. Also it seems that her contact with our
cousins has now been completely contaminated by whatever she said to them
behind our backs.

These cousins are definitely our second cousins, not some distant
possibility of a cousinship, which seems to have been used and is continued
to be used by her and her protectors as a justification for her outrageous
betrayal and interference in our family's privacy.

It seems that this is acceptable behaviour in Jewish and other genealogical
circles. Well I do not find this remotely acceptable. I have heard of
other instances of this happening to people - it is not an isolated
instance. And you could be the next victim.

I honestly believe this subject needs to be aired and discussed. With the
advent of highly sophisticated technology anyone can steal your family's
history and reputation and you may not even know it until it is too late.

I have tried over several months to air this within the confines of the
group which I founded, but have been quite brutally forced to leave; noone
wants to know. I have tried to raise this in other circles as well and will
continue to do so until some ethical guidelines are promulgated and somehow
enforced, even if by asking subscribers to acknowledge these in writing
before being granted access to what are in fact other people's privacy and
pain.

I honestly do not believe that Jewish genealogy was meant to be like this.
And if it continues to be wide open to charlatans and exploiters, it will
not survive long as reputable and ethical researchers find other means of
pursuing their research.

When I started this about three years ago, all I wanted to do is record all
the hundreds of names of our family who perished in the Shoah and along the
way I have been able to reestablish contact with many cousins with whom
there has been no contact for 60 and more years. Also I have found other
cousins, who didn't even know our family in Australia existed. But much of
this work has now been defiled and contaminated by this woman's obsessive
and egotistical and criminal behaviour.

Be warned - you could be next.

I have just read Professor Jerry Esterson's warning on Latviasig about
Kindred Konnections and piracy. I urge you all to think about this deeply,
in the general and in the particular.

Lorraine Bertelsen
Boho downunder
please remove lu >from my email address


Latvia SIG #Latvia Betrayals and Ethics #latvia

K.& L. Bertelsen <klb@...>
 

Dear Litvaksig and Latviasig members

This will probably be my last posting, but I feel you should all be warned
that what happened to me could easily also happen to you.

My name and that of my husband have been used without our consent and
without our prior knowledge by a third party in letters which have been
sent to a number of families in Paris, and, perhaps elsewhere as well, in
which I was described as this person's researcher and in which she quoted
details of my immediate family (not hers) and requested recipients to
forward details of their families to her.

Despite my protests about this, this person then proceeded to contact my
recently rediscovered cousins, who live in the same continent and in the
same city as her, pretending to be a relative, and obtained >from them
information, names and addresses of other cousins, etc.

I had previously pleaded with her to allow me and my cousin to rebuild
contact with our cousins (second cousins of my late Mama Nana), with whom
contact had been lost perhaps 70 years earlier. She ignored my requests
and continued to follow up whatever information and contacts she was given
and refused to stop her deceitful activities and also flatly refused to
pass on this information to me or my cousin and allow us to rebuild a
relationship with our elderly, frail and seriously ill relatives on several
continents.

When I again protested, this person promptly hijacked the group which I had
founded about 18 months earlier, and to which I had devoted my energies,
and forced me off the group, subjected me to threatening phone calls (from
overseas) and email messages and absolutely refused to leave our family
follow-ups to my cousin and I. Also it seems that her contact with our
cousins has now been completely contaminated by whatever she said to them
behind our backs.

These cousins are definitely our second cousins, not some distant
possibility of a cousinship, which seems to have been used and is continued
to be used by her and her protectors as a justification for her outrageous
betrayal and interference in our family's privacy.

It seems that this is acceptable behaviour in Jewish and other genealogical
circles. Well I do not find this remotely acceptable. I have heard of
other instances of this happening to people - it is not an isolated
instance. And you could be the next victim.

I honestly believe this subject needs to be aired and discussed. With the
advent of highly sophisticated technology anyone can steal your family's
history and reputation and you may not even know it until it is too late.

I have tried over several months to air this within the confines of the
group which I founded, but have been quite brutally forced to leave; noone
wants to know. I have tried to raise this in other circles as well and will
continue to do so until some ethical guidelines are promulgated and somehow
enforced, even if by asking subscribers to acknowledge these in writing
before being granted access to what are in fact other people's privacy and
pain.

I honestly do not believe that Jewish genealogy was meant to be like this.
And if it continues to be wide open to charlatans and exploiters, it will
not survive long as reputable and ethical researchers find other means of
pursuing their research.

When I started this about three years ago, all I wanted to do is record all
the hundreds of names of our family who perished in the Shoah and along the
way I have been able to reestablish contact with many cousins with whom
there has been no contact for 60 and more years. Also I have found other
cousins, who didn't even know our family in Australia existed. But much of
this work has now been defiled and contaminated by this woman's obsessive
and egotistical and criminal behaviour.

Be warned - you could be next.

I have just read Professor Jerry Esterson's warning on Latviasig about
Kindred Konnections and piracy. I urge you all to think about this deeply,
in the general and in the particular.

Lorraine Bertelsen
Boho downunder
please remove lu >from my email address


Re: "Rivermen" (Tutajosok) - about the 1882 trial of Rutenian Jews... #hungary

MGS18@...
 

on 2/2/99 8:02 PM h-sig@... wrote:

"Rivermen" (Tutajosok) - about the 1882 trial of Rutenian Jews.

This piqued my interest as it may be a factor in my GGF's emigration to
the US, does anyone have further details of this incident?
Is this the same movie as "Memories of a River" a film by Judit Elek?
Last year about this time many people recommended that film and I caught
it on Bravo, the cable channel. I think it was based on the Tiszaeslar
blood libel case and tells the story of the trial and subsequent aquittal
of the Jewish river raftmen accused of murdering a young Christian girl.

It was an excellent film-the scenes of the Jews' lives in their villages,
the korscma (tavern), and the tension during the trial are powerful and
captivating.

If "Riverman is a different film about the same event, someone please
correct me as I'd like to order the right one >from the place recommended
by Magda.

Mindy


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: "Rivermen" (Tutajosok) - about the 1882 trial of Rutenian Jews... #hungary

MGS18@...
 

on 2/2/99 8:02 PM h-sig@... wrote:

"Rivermen" (Tutajosok) - about the 1882 trial of Rutenian Jews.

This piqued my interest as it may be a factor in my GGF's emigration to
the US, does anyone have further details of this incident?
Is this the same movie as "Memories of a River" a film by Judit Elek?
Last year about this time many people recommended that film and I caught
it on Bravo, the cable channel. I think it was based on the Tiszaeslar
blood libel case and tells the story of the trial and subsequent aquittal
of the Jewish river raftmen accused of murdering a young Christian girl.

It was an excellent film-the scenes of the Jews' lives in their villages,
the korscma (tavern), and the tension during the trial are powerful and
captivating.

If "Riverman is a different film about the same event, someone please
correct me as I'd like to order the right one >from the place recommended
by Magda.

Mindy


Re: Emigration from Odessa to the US via Turkey and France #general

Guillermo Steinberg <guillo@...>
 

My great-grandfather and his family left Odessa and tried
to settle in Palestine in 1891. After a short period they decided to go
back, finding they were not allowed to return to their homeland. Ended up
temporarily in Istanbul (Constantinople), they learned about Baron Hirsch's
plan to help people emigrate to Argentina, and decided to accept this
chance. More than 800 people shared their fate. The path was: Istanbul
(Turkey) => Marseille (France) by ship; Marseille => Bordeaux by train;
Bordeaux => Pauillac by ship; Pauillac => Le Havre => Buenos Aires, by the
mythical ship "Pampa", which followed to La Plata. This group of people was
known as "Stambulers" (the ones >from Istanbul) or "Pampistas" (those of the
"Pampa").
A JewishGenner asked for me the Bordeaux Archives, and
no list of passengers was found there. He's been told that maybe in Paris
there is something. A librarian >from Bordeaux sent me some transcriptions
of old newspapers which referred to this group of emigrants. This is all I
have until
now.
There's a book written by the chilean Alejandro
Jodorowsky (not published in English yet), whose family came >from
Dnepropetrovsk, and he tells there about a very similar path. Regards,
Guillermo Steinberg
Firenze, Italia.


Claude & Sally Janin ha scritto:

My father's family is originally >from Odessa, Ukraine. I have been told
that they emigrated to the United States via Turkey then Paris, France.
Is this a common emigration route? Is it possible to find information in
Turkey and Paris, France about arrivals and departures? I've checked the
message archive and the info files and found nothing about this emigration
route.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Emigration from Odessa to the US via Turkey and France #general

Guillermo Steinberg <guillo@...>
 

My great-grandfather and his family left Odessa and tried
to settle in Palestine in 1891. After a short period they decided to go
back, finding they were not allowed to return to their homeland. Ended up
temporarily in Istanbul (Constantinople), they learned about Baron Hirsch's
plan to help people emigrate to Argentina, and decided to accept this
chance. More than 800 people shared their fate. The path was: Istanbul
(Turkey) => Marseille (France) by ship; Marseille => Bordeaux by train;
Bordeaux => Pauillac by ship; Pauillac => Le Havre => Buenos Aires, by the
mythical ship "Pampa", which followed to La Plata. This group of people was
known as "Stambulers" (the ones >from Istanbul) or "Pampistas" (those of the
"Pampa").
A JewishGenner asked for me the Bordeaux Archives, and
no list of passengers was found there. He's been told that maybe in Paris
there is something. A librarian >from Bordeaux sent me some transcriptions
of old newspapers which referred to this group of emigrants. This is all I
have until
now.
There's a book written by the chilean Alejandro
Jodorowsky (not published in English yet), whose family came >from
Dnepropetrovsk, and he tells there about a very similar path. Regards,
Guillermo Steinberg
Firenze, Italia.


Claude & Sally Janin ha scritto:

My father's family is originally >from Odessa, Ukraine. I have been told
that they emigrated to the United States via Turkey then Paris, France.
Is this a common emigration route? Is it possible to find information in
Turkey and Paris, France about arrivals and departures? I've checked the
message archive and the info files and found nothing about this emigration
route.


Social Security Numbers #general

Ellen Sattler-Harpin <EHarpin@...>
 

Can anyone suggest a reason why my gf, Abe EPSTEIN, who was in the USA
at least by 1916 did not get a Social Security card until 1962?
Ellen in Winter Springs, Florida


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Social Security Numbers #general

Ellen Sattler-Harpin <EHarpin@...>
 

Can anyone suggest a reason why my gf, Abe EPSTEIN, who was in the USA
at least by 1916 did not get a Social Security card until 1962?
Ellen in Winter Springs, Florida


Re: A terminological point #general

Gailcopela@...
 

<<the use of the word 'given' to refer to forenames>>

This usage is quite common in English-speaking North America (Canada and
the U.S.). Sometimes the "forename" is also referred to as one's "first
name" or even "Christian name".

My Concise Oxford says: "US, a name given at, or as it at, baptism; a
Christian name."

I think the ancient Romans had the best terminology (these definitions also
from the Concise Oxford): praenomen (the first or personal name, for
example, Marcus), nomen (the second or family name, for example, Tullius),
cognomen (personal name or eptithet, for example, Cicero). For whatever
reason, what we've come down to today in English-speaking cultures is in
effect two (or more) praenomens and a nomen (one's surname).

As others have said, use what you're comfortable with. Just beware that
there are differences in terminology >from one country to another, and be
sure when communicating with someone in another country that you are both
talking about the same thing, esp. when that person's first language isn't
English (which is fraught with enough differences in terminology as it is).

Gail Copeland
Thornhill (Toronto), ON Canada


United Kingdom Visas #general

Gillian Zebaida
 

My great-grandparents came >from Mogilev Podolskiy, Ukraine to London in
1914 to attend their eldest grandsons' Barmitzvah in August 1914. They
could not return because of WWI and then because of the Russian Revolution.
They returned in 1923/24. I know where they stayed but I wonder whether
they would have had to apply for visas to enter this country and whether
they would have had to register as aliens while they were here. Does anyone
out there have any knowledge of the formalities they would have had to
complete and whether there is any access to these documents now in London.
Gillian Zebaida.
Researching: AMERIKANER (Ickelheim), BLUMENTHAL / ROBBINS (San Francisco),
DOLLAR/Dolliar / DUBE / ZASLAVER (Mogilev Podolskiy), EISMANN/EISEMANN
(?Grosskrotzenberg), HERZBERGER / NORDHAUSER (Wustensachen),OPPENHEIMER
(Worms), HIRSCHMANN / SCHMIDT (Grosskrotzenberg) REUS (Reis/Reiss),
SHOVERS (Racine, Wi) WERTHEIMER (Mannehim), ZEBAIDA (Iraq/USA)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: A terminological point #general

Gailcopela@...
 

<<the use of the word 'given' to refer to forenames>>

This usage is quite common in English-speaking North America (Canada and
the U.S.). Sometimes the "forename" is also referred to as one's "first
name" or even "Christian name".

My Concise Oxford says: "US, a name given at, or as it at, baptism; a
Christian name."

I think the ancient Romans had the best terminology (these definitions also
from the Concise Oxford): praenomen (the first or personal name, for
example, Marcus), nomen (the second or family name, for example, Tullius),
cognomen (personal name or eptithet, for example, Cicero). For whatever
reason, what we've come down to today in English-speaking cultures is in
effect two (or more) praenomens and a nomen (one's surname).

As others have said, use what you're comfortable with. Just beware that
there are differences in terminology >from one country to another, and be
sure when communicating with someone in another country that you are both
talking about the same thing, esp. when that person's first language isn't
English (which is fraught with enough differences in terminology as it is).

Gail Copeland
Thornhill (Toronto), ON Canada


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen United Kingdom Visas #general

Gillian Zebaida
 

My great-grandparents came >from Mogilev Podolskiy, Ukraine to London in
1914 to attend their eldest grandsons' Barmitzvah in August 1914. They
could not return because of WWI and then because of the Russian Revolution.
They returned in 1923/24. I know where they stayed but I wonder whether
they would have had to apply for visas to enter this country and whether
they would have had to register as aliens while they were here. Does anyone
out there have any knowledge of the formalities they would have had to
complete and whether there is any access to these documents now in London.
Gillian Zebaida.
Researching: AMERIKANER (Ickelheim), BLUMENTHAL / ROBBINS (San Francisco),
DOLLAR/Dolliar / DUBE / ZASLAVER (Mogilev Podolskiy), EISMANN/EISEMANN
(?Grosskrotzenberg), HERZBERGER / NORDHAUSER (Wustensachen),OPPENHEIMER
(Worms), HIRSCHMANN / SCHMIDT (Grosskrotzenberg) REUS (Reis/Reiss),
SHOVERS (Racine, Wi) WERTHEIMER (Mannehim), ZEBAIDA (Iraq/USA)


Re: Sarah Frank #general

Mark and Debbie Burr <ember@...>
 

Have you sent for Sarah's death certificate. My great grandmother died
also in 1931 in Ontario and my father's cousin sent for the long form of
the death certificate. It gave quite a bit of information for $22
Canadian. In order to get an order form for the certificate you must
contact the following: Registrations after the above dates are available
for a fee >from the Registrar-General, PO Box 4600, Thunder Bay, ON P7B
6L8 (800) 461-2156 in Ontario; (807) 343-7420 elsewhere. Be advised that
you may be required to be the next of kin in order to receive a copy of
the registrations. When you call or write they will send you an order
form which you return to them with the required fee. It takes 6-8 weeks
for a reply. Hope this helps. Deborah Kopstein Burr , Ontario Canada

Mark Burr U.E. &
Debbie Burr
ember@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: Sarah Frank #general

Mark and Debbie Burr <ember@...>
 

Have you sent for Sarah's death certificate. My great grandmother died
also in 1931 in Ontario and my father's cousin sent for the long form of
the death certificate. It gave quite a bit of information for $22
Canadian. In order to get an order form for the certificate you must
contact the following: Registrations after the above dates are available
for a fee >from the Registrar-General, PO Box 4600, Thunder Bay, ON P7B
6L8 (800) 461-2156 in Ontario; (807) 343-7420 elsewhere. Be advised that
you may be required to be the next of kin in order to receive a copy of
the registrations. When you call or write they will send you an order
form which you return to them with the required fee. It takes 6-8 weeks
for a reply. Hope this helps. Deborah Kopstein Burr , Ontario Canada

Mark Burr U.E. &
Debbie Burr
ember@...


Searching: surnames GRAUBERT/GROUBERT/GRAUBART #general

AlanG63801 <alang63801@...>
 

looking for any info on these people>from Poland, Poznan
Province,Gabernia{county} Kaleice, towns of Konin and Slupca.
alan s. graubert md, alang@...


Karen Indig #general

CISSIE EPPEL <cissie_eppel@...>
 

I found Karen Indig's name in her search for MENUHIN in the Jewish Family
Finder. I wrote to the address she listed but the letter was returned
undelivered. I am also researching the name MENUHIN.

If Karen sees this posting, or if anyone knows her postal address or e
mail address, please respond to me via my e mail address.

Postings on any listing should be updated when postal address or e mail
address have been changed.

Cissie Eppel
Vancouver