Charlotte gives a figure of 800,000 people killed in this area. I would
be interested in any references to the numbers of Jews killed in or
around Minsk. On a visit in 1997 our guide indicated a figure of around
600,000 people. The one reference to this in the Encyclopaedia of the
Holocaust, entry by Shalom Cholawski, where he quotes an unspecified
Soviet source as estimating the number of people killed in Maly
Trostinets at over two hundred thousand. The monument at Bolshoi
Trostinets gives a figure of 201,500 peaceful citizens, partisans and
red army prisoners of war. ( No Jews were mentioned in Soviet times,
this has probably now been changed).

I also find her reference to 'Israeli Government erecting memorial
plaques' a little unusual. I cannot talk about Byelorus with any
authority, but in Lithuania the plaques were originally erected in
Soviet times, and under independent Lithuania these have been put up by
the Lithuanian Government , usually under the advice and control of the
Jewish Community in Vilnius. I would personally be most surprised if
there is any Israeli government involvement in anything like this.

Dr Saul Issroff
<saul@swico.demon.co.uk>

Charlotte Guthmann Opfermann (charlotteo@aol.com) wrote:

Shirley Wilcox, president of the (U.S.)National Genealogical Society has
asked me to publicize the following:

"NGS is now accepting program proposals (due March 18, 1999) for the Year
2000 Conference-in-the States to be held May 31-June 3, 2000 in
Providence, Rhode Island."

"The focus of this conference will be the nature and extent of
immigration into New Englad over the centuries and the diverse culture
that has resulted."

"Possible lecture topics include...all immigrant groups and their
origins..." "Prsentations that demonstrate the use of computer software
and other technological tools in research and publication of family
history are particularly sought."

Questions may be directed to Joyce S. Pendery at <JPendery@aol.com>.

Sallyann Amdur Sack, editor
AVOTAYNU, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy

Charlotte gives a figure of 800,000 people killed in this area. I would
be interested in any references to the numbers of Jews killed in or
around Minsk. On a visit in 1997 our guide indicated a figure of around
600,000 people. The one reference to this in the Encyclopaedia of the
Holocaust, entry by Shalom Cholawski, where he quotes an unspecified
Soviet source as estimating the number of people killed in Maly
Trostinets at over two hundred thousand. The monument at Bolshoi
Trostinets gives a figure of 201,500 peaceful citizens, partisans and
red army prisoners of war. ( No Jews were mentioned in Soviet times,
this has probably now been changed).

I also find her reference to 'Israeli Government erecting memorial
plaques' a little unusual. I cannot talk about Byelorus with any
authority, but in Lithuania the plaques were originally erected in
Soviet times, and under independent Lithuania these have been put up by
the Lithuanian Government , usually under the advice and control of the
Jewish Community in Vilnius. I would personally be most surprised if
there is any Israeli government involvement in anything like this.

Dr Saul Issroff
<saul@swico.demon.co.uk>

Charlotte Guthmann Opfermann (charlotteo@aol.com) wrote:

Shirley Wilcox, president of the (U.S.)National Genealogical Society has
asked me to publicize the following:

"NGS is now accepting program proposals (due March 18, 1999) for the Year
2000 Conference-in-the States to be held May 31-June 3, 2000 in
Providence, Rhode Island."

"The focus of this conference will be the nature and extent of
immigration into New Englad over the centuries and the diverse culture
that has resulted."

"Possible lecture topics include...all immigrant groups and their
origins..." "Prsentations that demonstrate the use of computer software
and other technological tools in research and publication of family
history are particularly sought."

Questions may be directed to Joyce S. Pendery at <JPendery@aol.com>.

Sallyann Amdur Sack, editor
AVOTAYNU, the International Review of Jewish Genealogy

Is there anyone out there who is familiar with a book called Zichron
Kadashim: L'Yehudi Carpataros-Marmarosh >from the UC Berkeley Library. The author is Shlomo Rozman. The book, which appears to be written in Yiddish, has a number of photo illustrations and includes a list of towns and a memorial list of persons who perished. I can read a number of the names and places but they don't seem to be arranged in any kind of alphabetical order. There's a lengthy table of contents, but no index.

It would be easier for me to try to find names if I had some idea of the
contents and organization of this work.

Vivian Kahn

mod. Hopefully, others can assist you with your question. If not, I am familiar with the book and I can assist (however, you'll have to take a number). In general, this books is a Yizkor book for the region of Subcarpathian Ruthenia (AKA as Karpatho-Rus or Zakarpatskaya Oblast). The emphasis is on the Chassdic communities there, but of course, the information on the ghettoization, deportation and afterwards is applicable to all the Jews >from that region. LS

Is there anyone out there who is familiar with a book called Zichron
Kadashim: L'Yehudi Carpataros-Marmarosh >from the UC Berkeley Library. The author is Shlomo Rozman. The book, which appears to be written in Yiddish, has a number of photo illustrations and includes a list of towns and a memorial list of persons who perished. I can read a number of the names and places but they don't seem to be arranged in any kind of alphabetical order. There's a lengthy table of contents, but no index.

It would be easier for me to try to find names if I had some idea of the
contents and organization of this work.

Vivian Kahn

mod. Hopefully, others can assist you with your question. If not, I am familiar with the book and I can assist (however, you'll have to take a number). In general, this books is a Yizkor book for the region of Subcarpathian Ruthenia (AKA as Karpatho-Rus or Zakarpatskaya Oblast). The emphasis is on the Chassdic communities there, but of course, the information on the ghettoization, deportation and afterwards is applicable to all the Jews >from that region. LS

Dear Genners,

As Michael Bernet suggest , it can be that the name Suni is a nickname for
Sonya. I find few names that match perhaps also the nickname Suni. The names
Sheine, Sini, Shinlin, it can also came >from the name Zina or Zani. But I
think that the name Suni is a corruption of the name Jenny, and why ? in
Yiddish we write the name Jenny with the next letters :
Shin-Ayin-Nun-Nun-Yud and >from the Yiddish name Shanny to Suni is a short way.
Best regards
Ury Link
Amsterdam
Holland

Hello all,

I need to correspond with the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation. Does anybody
knows their email address or URL of their site? Please answer in private.

Thanks in advance
Tom

Dear Genners,

As Michael Bernet suggest , it can be that the name Suni is a nickname for
Sonya. I find few names that match perhaps also the nickname Suni. The names
Sheine, Sini, Shinlin, it can also came >from the name Zina or Zani. But I
think that the name Suni is a corruption of the name Jenny, and why ? in
Yiddish we write the name Jenny with the next letters :
Shin-Ayin-Nun-Nun-Yud and >from the Yiddish name Shanny to Suni is a short way.
Best regards
Ury Link
Amsterdam
Holland

Hello all,

I need to correspond with the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation. Does anybody
knows their email address or URL of their site? Please answer in private.

Thanks in advance
Tom

armata@vms.cis.pitt.edu wrote:

Linda Wilkins writes:

Can someone help me with the following:
My pgf came >from a small village
20 miles >from Slavintich, Poland. The name of the village he said was
Ciedlce.....
Questions: How can I find the village? What do the following mean in
Europe? shetl, gubneria,Province?

Hi! These are possibly the town of Slawiecice, located about 15 miles WNW >of Gliwice and about 10 miles E of Kedzierzyn-Kozle, in southern Poland, >and the village of Siedlec, located about 15 miles NW of Slawiecice and >about 10 miles W of Strzelce Opolskie.

These are all W >from Krakow, and SE >from Opole. Gliwice is right next to
Katowice.

A gubernia is the Russian term for a province, sometimes also translated as a county.

I believe that Mr. Armata's explanation about whereabouts of the
searching townships is very interesting but not entirely accurate. Those
current names of the Polish townships in this area of Upper Silesia were
given following the end of WWII. Slawiecice was known prior to WWII as
"Ehrenforst" and the nearby Siedlec as "Alt-Siedel", and were located in
the proper Reich territory. This area is not really known as a Jewish
settlement.

BTW, reference by Linda Wilkins to gubernia depicts that her ancestors
have originated >from Russian Poland.

Alexander Sharon

armata@vms.cis.pitt.edu wrote:

Linda Wilkins writes:

Can someone help me with the following:
My pgf came >from a small village
20 miles >from Slavintich, Poland. The name of the village he said was
Ciedlce.....
Questions: How can I find the village? What do the following mean in
Europe? shetl, gubneria,Province?

Hi! These are possibly the town of Slawiecice, located about 15 miles WNW >of Gliwice and about 10 miles E of Kedzierzyn-Kozle, in southern Poland, >and the village of Siedlec, located about 15 miles NW of Slawiecice and >about 10 miles W of Strzelce Opolskie.

These are all W >from Krakow, and SE >from Opole. Gliwice is right next to
Katowice.

A gubernia is the Russian term for a province, sometimes also translated as a county.

I believe that Mr. Armata's explanation about whereabouts of the
searching townships is very interesting but not entirely accurate. Those
current names of the Polish townships in this area of Upper Silesia were
given following the end of WWII. Slawiecice was known prior to WWII as
"Ehrenforst" and the nearby Siedlec as "Alt-Siedel", and were located in
the proper Reich territory. This area is not really known as a Jewish
settlement.

BTW, reference by Linda Wilkins to gubernia depicts that her ancestors
have originated >from Russian Poland.

Alexander Sharon

I received the follow message >from Yaakov Saturen and thought it might be
of interest to others in the Belarus SIG. If anyone who has access to
the NYC Public Library or Yeshiva University Library, perhaps you can
obtain additional information about this book and report back to the
discussion group.

David Fox
fox@erols.com
Arnold, MD
Belarus SIG Coordinator

from Louis- I thought this message would be of interest to the entire group. (Of course, I have received the writer's permission to do so.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Young and Arthur Drache [mailto:jy-abcd@cyberus.ca]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 1:44 AM
To: 'lmagyar@en.com'


Dear Louis,

Right up front I should like to say that I appreciate your reply to the
person who raised the issue, and I agree with it. Of course, I agree because
I am in the situation you describe: My primary interest in participating in
the H-sig is to be able to find out about parts of my family about which I
know very little because they died in the Holocaust and there seem to be no
other descendants. I have as yet no background in genealogy (and though I
have just retired, I am still involved in a number of projects so I have not
yet been able to devote myself properly to genealogical research). So,
clearly, my interests will be different >from someone who is researching
ancestors as a third generation American.

On the other hand, despite the fact that I have not properly started on
genealogy, I do have a fair bit of "live" information, for instance on my
mother's side of the family, because I still have one second-cousin in
Hungary who has some of this information. Thus I have been able to fill in a
number of missing links ( and confirm some information) for Tom Venetianer
and Gail Grossman and their Venetianer family trees. And I can probably get
more information for them in an upcoming trip to Hungary. Where I also hope
to get some basic information for myself on my father's side of the family
(BALAZS/BLAU). Anyway, the point is that Tom and Gail and I would not have
been able to share information without H-sig.

I think there is no doubt that having the mix of people in this group is
good and mutually supportive of the various goals and interests of the
different participants. This became abundantly clear with Tom Venetianer's
chance discovery of information about his uncle's fate! In that case the
genealogical research methods and the survivor's need to know came together
with wonderful result. If the researchers were not able to share
information through the h-sig discussion group, Tom may never have found
out.

I cannot deny that for me the urge to find out who my father's forebears
were is now a deep psychological rather than a scientific one. But that does
not mean that I will not use a scientific method. I think it just means that
I (and others like me) might be more interested in the stories of the people
behind the names, and not just the family relationship. Perhaps we have a
different purpose but can use the same means (genealogical research) to
achieve it. Perhaps we also have a need to feel connected to some family
members however distant. For some of us, that is all the family there is.

I am not aware of other Hungarian holocaust sites on the Net, that is, not
any through which I have a chance of finding out about my lost relatives.
Eventually, when I have more time, I may also be able to assist with
translation or other projects of JewishGen.

Sorry to have made this a bit long. Feel free to use any of this (or not),
and you may use my name too.

PS. Re the Pernumeranten list: I just have one suggestion: for "Plota". This
could be "palota" as in Varpalota which is just east of Szekesfehervar.

Thanks again, and kind regards,

Judy

***
Judy Young
jy-abcd@cyberus.ca or: jyoung@drache.com
Fax: 613/234-1959

I received the follow message >from Yaakov Saturen and thought it might be
of interest to others in the Belarus SIG. If anyone who has access to
the NYC Public Library or Yeshiva University Library, perhaps you can
obtain additional information about this book and report back to the
discussion group.

David Fox
fox@erols.com
Arnold, MD
Belarus SIG Coordinator

from Louis- I thought this message would be of interest to the entire group. (Of course, I have received the writer's permission to do so.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Judy Young and Arthur Drache [mailto:jy-abcd@cyberus.ca]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 1:44 AM
To: 'lmagyar@en.com'


Dear Louis,

Right up front I should like to say that I appreciate your reply to the
person who raised the issue, and I agree with it. Of course, I agree because
I am in the situation you describe: My primary interest in participating in
the H-sig is to be able to find out about parts of my family about which I
know very little because they died in the Holocaust and there seem to be no
other descendants. I have as yet no background in genealogy (and though I
have just retired, I am still involved in a number of projects so I have not
yet been able to devote myself properly to genealogical research). So,
clearly, my interests will be different >from someone who is researching
ancestors as a third generation American.

On the other hand, despite the fact that I have not properly started on
genealogy, I do have a fair bit of "live" information, for instance on my
mother's side of the family, because I still have one second-cousin in
Hungary who has some of this information. Thus I have been able to fill in a
number of missing links ( and confirm some information) for Tom Venetianer
and Gail Grossman and their Venetianer family trees. And I can probably get
more information for them in an upcoming trip to Hungary. Where I also hope
to get some basic information for myself on my father's side of the family
(BALAZS/BLAU). Anyway, the point is that Tom and Gail and I would not have
been able to share information without H-sig.

I think there is no doubt that having the mix of people in this group is
good and mutually supportive of the various goals and interests of the
different participants. This became abundantly clear with Tom Venetianer's
chance discovery of information about his uncle's fate! In that case the
genealogical research methods and the survivor's need to know came together
with wonderful result. If the researchers were not able to share
information through the h-sig discussion group, Tom may never have found
out.

I cannot deny that for me the urge to find out who my father's forebears
were is now a deep psychological rather than a scientific one. But that does
not mean that I will not use a scientific method. I think it just means that
I (and others like me) might be more interested in the stories of the people
behind the names, and not just the family relationship. Perhaps we have a
different purpose but can use the same means (genealogical research) to
achieve it. Perhaps we also have a need to feel connected to some family
members however distant. For some of us, that is all the family there is.

I am not aware of other Hungarian holocaust sites on the Net, that is, not
any through which I have a chance of finding out about my lost relatives.
Eventually, when I have more time, I may also be able to assist with
translation or other projects of JewishGen.

Sorry to have made this a bit long. Feel free to use any of this (or not),
and you may use my name too.

PS. Re the Pernumeranten list: I just have one suggestion: for "Plota". This
could be "palota" as in Varpalota which is just east of Szekesfehervar.

Thanks again, and kind regards,

Judy

***
Judy Young
jy-abcd@cyberus.ca or: jyoung@drache.com
Fax: 613/234-1959

I am searching for any information about the KAFTAL surname, originating
in Milawa, Poland. My grandfather,Irving was born in Poland on February
22, 1908 and immigrated before he was one year of age. He was the youngest
of the family, and his father was named Baruch. The family settled in New
York City and I am searching for any of his older siblings offspring.

Sherri Kaftal, La Jolla, California
yldhart@ix.netcom.com
Searching: LUCASH-Russia - > New York City 1900-1950

I am searching for any information about the KAFTAL surname, originating
in Milawa, Poland. My grandfather,Irving was born in Poland on February
22, 1908 and immigrated before he was one year of age. He was the youngest
of the family, and his father was named Baruch. The family settled in New
York City and I am searching for any of his older siblings offspring.

Sherri Kaftal, La Jolla, California
yldhart@ix.netcom.com
Searching: LUCASH-Russia - > New York City 1900-1950

Especially for a travelling salesperson who might not have had as many
roots and contacts in his new place of residence, it is probably just as
likely that the second wife was a neighbor of a family member, or a
cousin of someone, or a woman who was known to be in need of a match
(hence willing to become a stepmother with the work that entailed and
move away), etc. Without another indication that the wives are sisters
it is probably safest to assume that there was a familial or neigborhood
or some other kind of connection >from the original town -- rather than
assuming it was familial. Related example: when my ggrandmother
travelled >from Minsk to Rypin, Poland to help my grandmother with the
birth of a child, my ggrandmother made a match between a man in Rypin and
a woman (think a relative but detail escapes me) back in Minsk. So the
point is there is going to be some connection, but it may not be the
simplest connection that you are able to deduce.
Jonina Duker

Adam Katzeff wrote:

Especially for a travelling salesperson who might not have had as many
roots and contacts in his new place of residence, it is probably just as
likely that the second wife was a neighbor of a family member, or a
cousin of someone, or a woman who was known to be in need of a match
(hence willing to become a stepmother with the work that entailed and
move away), etc. Without another indication that the wives are sisters
it is probably safest to assume that there was a familial or neigborhood
or some other kind of connection >from the original town -- rather than
assuming it was familial. Related example: when my ggrandmother
travelled >from Minsk to Rypin, Poland to help my grandmother with the
birth of a child, my ggrandmother made a match between a man in Rypin and
a woman (think a relative but detail escapes me) back in Minsk. So the
point is there is going to be some connection, but it may not be the
simplest connection that you are able to deduce.
Jonina Duker

Adam Katzeff wrote: