Date   

* Being a Jew (was Re: Center for Jewish History) #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Dear Linda and all,

I am replying this message in public not because I wish to raise a
controversy but because history must be seen within the correct perspective
to make justice to those millions who have been murdered among us - not
only by the Nazis but by the Spaniards, Pollack, Ukrainians, Russians, just
to mention a few.

What Linda writes is of course correct - in America, the archetype of
freedom, one MUST profess what Linda professes. But for one single reason -
because Americans are *allowed* to be free.

But put yourselves in the shoes of Jews living in Europe and in the Middle
Eastern countries where they have been persecuted for centuries if not
millenia. Is the same attitude valid? Clearly not.

Just to come back to Hungary, the Hungarians *never* allowed Jews to be
free and full fledged citizens. To support this statement, please read the
book written by my famous ancestor Venetianer Lajos (A Magyar Zsidosag
Tortenete - the history of Hungarian Jewry) who was *requested* by the
Budapest Jewish community to write a book in DEFENSE of the Hungarian Jews,
demonstrating how good and decent citizens they were for centuries. The
book is dated 1922 when religious integration and assimilations were the
buzzwords. 20 years later the Arrow Cross were slaughtering us.

For G-d's sake, how can somebody feel himself a Hungarian Jew? If one
thinks antisemitism has changed this person is very very wrong - it is as
extreme as it was before Horty took over, before Queen Elisabeth expelled
us >from Hungarian territories, before other Hungarian Kings persecuted us
and made the lives of Jews miserable to extremes.

I am sorry to bring this up, but one joke that circulated in my country
(Slovakia) after liberation was the following: an American lady got news
from her family who survived the Holocaust. That letter informed that her
aunt has been murdered by the Nazi bastards. In answer she wrote the
following (in broken Hungarian) "Nagyon sajnalatos hogy Siszi neni meg
gyilkolta a lagerba mert o nagyon szimpatikus mindenkihez volt" (== it is
to regret that aunt Siszi was murdered in the lager because she was always
such a nice person to everybody). The moral of this was of course that
American Jews were *unable* to grasp the magnitude of the barbarism that
was committed against our people.

In my opinion it is an offense to the memory of all those brethren who died
because of persecutions to declare myself a Slovakian Jew. It's a mocking
of their martyrdom. I am sorry, I may be even sinning, but I will NEVER
forget!!!

In Peace and Harmony I wish you all Happy Holidays
May the Lord have mercy of my soul
Tom

--------------------
Linda Cohen wrote:

I am an American who is Jewish, and I am a Jew who is an American. I don't need any one to give me the right to be who I am. No one can take who I am >from me as what we are in our minds and hearts. So to further process my idea:If a person is Hungarian, he is. If he is Jewish, he is. Freedom means not having to choose between the two, nor put one first.


Bertha FIEDLER-WEGNER family #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

I am interested in contacting any descendants of Bertha FIEDLER, who was a
relative (perhaps sister or cousin) of Arthur FIEDLER (the late conductor
of the Boston Pops).

Bertha FIEDLER was either the first or second wife of Julius Juda WEGNER
(b. 1863) of Vienna. My husband, Peter WEGNER, is a grandson of Julius
WEGNER by his third wife, and we are looking for descendants by either of
the first two wives.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...


Hungary SIG #Hungary * Being a Jew (was Re: Center for Jewish History) #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Dear Linda and all,

I am replying this message in public not because I wish to raise a
controversy but because history must be seen within the correct perspective
to make justice to those millions who have been murdered among us - not
only by the Nazis but by the Spaniards, Pollack, Ukrainians, Russians, just
to mention a few.

What Linda writes is of course correct - in America, the archetype of
freedom, one MUST profess what Linda professes. But for one single reason -
because Americans are *allowed* to be free.

But put yourselves in the shoes of Jews living in Europe and in the Middle
Eastern countries where they have been persecuted for centuries if not
millenia. Is the same attitude valid? Clearly not.

Just to come back to Hungary, the Hungarians *never* allowed Jews to be
free and full fledged citizens. To support this statement, please read the
book written by my famous ancestor Venetianer Lajos (A Magyar Zsidosag
Tortenete - the history of Hungarian Jewry) who was *requested* by the
Budapest Jewish community to write a book in DEFENSE of the Hungarian Jews,
demonstrating how good and decent citizens they were for centuries. The
book is dated 1922 when religious integration and assimilations were the
buzzwords. 20 years later the Arrow Cross were slaughtering us.

For G-d's sake, how can somebody feel himself a Hungarian Jew? If one
thinks antisemitism has changed this person is very very wrong - it is as
extreme as it was before Horty took over, before Queen Elisabeth expelled
us >from Hungarian territories, before other Hungarian Kings persecuted us
and made the lives of Jews miserable to extremes.

I am sorry to bring this up, but one joke that circulated in my country
(Slovakia) after liberation was the following: an American lady got news
from her family who survived the Holocaust. That letter informed that her
aunt has been murdered by the Nazi bastards. In answer she wrote the
following (in broken Hungarian) "Nagyon sajnalatos hogy Siszi neni meg
gyilkolta a lagerba mert o nagyon szimpatikus mindenkihez volt" (== it is
to regret that aunt Siszi was murdered in the lager because she was always
such a nice person to everybody). The moral of this was of course that
American Jews were *unable* to grasp the magnitude of the barbarism that
was committed against our people.

In my opinion it is an offense to the memory of all those brethren who died
because of persecutions to declare myself a Slovakian Jew. It's a mocking
of their martyrdom. I am sorry, I may be even sinning, but I will NEVER
forget!!!

In Peace and Harmony I wish you all Happy Holidays
May the Lord have mercy of my soul
Tom

--------------------
Linda Cohen wrote:

I am an American who is Jewish, and I am a Jew who is an American. I don't need any one to give me the right to be who I am. No one can take who I am >from me as what we are in our minds and hearts. So to further process my idea:If a person is Hungarian, he is. If he is Jewish, he is. Freedom means not having to choose between the two, nor put one first.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Bertha FIEDLER-WEGNER family #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

I am interested in contacting any descendants of Bertha FIEDLER, who was a
relative (perhaps sister or cousin) of Arthur FIEDLER (the late conductor
of the Boston Pops).

Bertha FIEDLER was either the first or second wife of Julius Juda WEGNER
(b. 1863) of Vienna. My husband, Peter WEGNER, is a grandson of Julius
WEGNER by his third wife, and we are looking for descendants by either of
the first two wives.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...


CORB Help needed #general

DC <dcinotti@...>
 

Hello all,

I seem to have run into a few dead ends and am wondering if anybody out
there can help me. I am looking for information on the family of Morty
CORB, a big band musician who passed away a couple of years ago. I have
reason to believe that he might be one of my missing Corb's. If anybody
knows how to cvontact his family or has any great ideas, I'd love to
know. I've tried going through record companies, but have had no luck.

Many Thanks
Abbee Corb-Cinotti


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen CORB Help needed #general

DC <dcinotti@...>
 

Hello all,

I seem to have run into a few dead ends and am wondering if anybody out
there can help me. I am looking for information on the family of Morty
CORB, a big band musician who passed away a couple of years ago. I have
reason to believe that he might be one of my missing Corb's. If anybody
knows how to cvontact his family or has any great ideas, I'd love to
know. I've tried going through record companies, but have had no luck.

Many Thanks
Abbee Corb-Cinotti


Kapnibanya #hungary

Alfred Klein <dcas17@...>
 

Hi all,

Can someone help me with the location of Kapnibanya? My aunt was born
there. It is located in Transylvania or more probably Maramures. I have
looked for it on maps and atlases and on the Jewish gen site but, have been
unable to find it.

Alfred Klein
New York
dcas17@...


Hungary SIG #Hungary Kapnibanya #hungary

Alfred Klein <dcas17@...>
 

Hi all,

Can someone help me with the location of Kapnibanya? My aunt was born
there. It is located in Transylvania or more probably Maramures. I have
looked for it on maps and atlases and on the Jewish gen site but, have been
unable to find it.

Alfred Klein
New York
dcas17@...


Boston, Mass. Census #general

Gillian Zebaida
 

I have an address on an envelope dated 13 December 1926 of 133 Chambers
Street. I am trying to find a Kurland/Kurlan/Karlan/Karland family. Is
there anyone out there who might have access to the 1925 census for Boston,
who could take a look for me. I'm a long way >from the nearest LDS Centre.


Gillian Zebaida.
Researching: AMERIKANER (Ickelheim), BLUMENTHAL / ROBBINS (San Francisco),
DOLLAR/Dolliar / DUBE / ZASLAVER (Mogilev Podolskiy), EISMANN/EISEMANN
(?Grosskrotzenberg), HERZBERGER / NORDHAUSER (Wustensachen),OPPENHEIMER
(Worms), HIRSCHMANN / SCHMIDT (Grosskrotzenberg) REUS (Reis/Reiss),
SHOVERS (Racine, Wi) WERTHEIMER (Mannehim), ZEBAIDA (Iraq/USA)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Boston, Mass. Census #general

Gillian Zebaida
 

I have an address on an envelope dated 13 December 1926 of 133 Chambers
Street. I am trying to find a Kurland/Kurlan/Karlan/Karland family. Is
there anyone out there who might have access to the 1925 census for Boston,
who could take a look for me. I'm a long way >from the nearest LDS Centre.


Gillian Zebaida.
Researching: AMERIKANER (Ickelheim), BLUMENTHAL / ROBBINS (San Francisco),
DOLLAR/Dolliar / DUBE / ZASLAVER (Mogilev Podolskiy), EISMANN/EISEMANN
(?Grosskrotzenberg), HERZBERGER / NORDHAUSER (Wustensachen),OPPENHEIMER
(Worms), HIRSCHMANN / SCHMIDT (Grosskrotzenberg) REUS (Reis/Reiss),
SHOVERS (Racine, Wi) WERTHEIMER (Mannehim), ZEBAIDA (Iraq/USA)


Kindertransport to England #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Subject: Children saved >from WWII by going to England

During WWII, some German Jewish children were saved by being sent to England
and being adopted there. Can anyone tell me if (1) the Jewish children from
Poland may have been involved in such a plan, and (2) if there is an
organization that can be contacted regarding the possible whereabouts of
these children.
You are referring to the Kindertransport children (my husband was one).
This initiative, made possible by a vote of the British Parliament, saved
10,000 children (mostly, but not all, Jewish) in 1938-39. Most came from
Germany, Austria or Czechoslovakia. Today, many belong to organizations
like the Reunion of Kindertransport (founded in London in 1989) or the
Kindertransport Association (founded in USA in 1990).

In general, Polish children were not involved in the Kindertransports. The
trains left >from Vienna, Berlin, and Prague. Nor were the
Kinderstransport children, in general, adopted. They were placed in foster
homes and hostels. No doubt some may have been ultimately adopted by those
who sheltered them, but certainly not the majority, whose placement in
homes, hostels, and boarding schools was supervised by the Jewish Board of
Guardians in London.

To determine whether any Kindertransport children were of Polish origin,
try writing to Kurt Goldberger, President, Kindertransport Association, 36
Dean Street, Hicksville NY 11801, or to Bertha Leverton, President, Reunion
of Kindertransport, 1 Hampstead Gate, 1a Frognal, London NW3 6AL.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Kindertransport to England #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Subject: Children saved >from WWII by going to England

During WWII, some German Jewish children were saved by being sent to England
and being adopted there. Can anyone tell me if (1) the Jewish children from
Poland may have been involved in such a plan, and (2) if there is an
organization that can be contacted regarding the possible whereabouts of
these children.
You are referring to the Kindertransport children (my husband was one).
This initiative, made possible by a vote of the British Parliament, saved
10,000 children (mostly, but not all, Jewish) in 1938-39. Most came from
Germany, Austria or Czechoslovakia. Today, many belong to organizations
like the Reunion of Kindertransport (founded in London in 1989) or the
Kindertransport Association (founded in USA in 1990).

In general, Polish children were not involved in the Kindertransports. The
trains left >from Vienna, Berlin, and Prague. Nor were the
Kinderstransport children, in general, adopted. They were placed in foster
homes and hostels. No doubt some may have been ultimately adopted by those
who sheltered them, but certainly not the majority, whose placement in
homes, hostels, and boarding schools was supervised by the Jewish Board of
Guardians in London.

To determine whether any Kindertransport children were of Polish origin,
try writing to Kurt Goldberger, President, Kindertransport Association, 36
Dean Street, Hicksville NY 11801, or to Bertha Leverton, President, Reunion
of Kindertransport, 1 Hampstead Gate, 1a Frognal, London NW3 6AL.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...


WEB sites translating letters into Spanish #general

Jose Gutstein <jmg-miami@...>
 

Being fluent in Spanish, I should caution that such literal translations
sometimes result in very unusual language, to say the least, though I
realize such a Web Site feature IS certainly better than nothing.

I tried the Web Site Stephen Mednick mentioned (see below) using the English
text that he wrote in the posting. The result was a Spanish translation
that, though understandable (especially since I had read the English version
and knew what to expect), produced some strange phrasing and grammar. It
takes words and produces a literal translation, instead of taking phrases at
a time. Spanish doesn't lend itself to such literal translations.

But like I said before, it does at least produce a result that is readable,
though I caution, not in all cases, depending on the intricacy of the
original English text.

Jose Gutstein
JMG-Miami@...


Stephen Mednick wrote:

Thanks very much to Ricki Zunk who put me onto a very useful web site to
help achieve my objective listed below.

The web location is the AltaVista Translations facility and the web
address is http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate? At
this site you can enter text in one language and it will translate it
into another for you. With reference to the letter I wanted to mail, I
cut the text >from the WORD document and pasted it into the text box at
the web site and hit the translate button. After the translated text
appeared, I highlighted the text and hit COPY and then using a new WORD
document pasted the translated text into until I eventually had
constructed the letter I wanted written in Spanish.

The translation facility supports a number of popular languages.
SNIP


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen WEB sites translating letters into Spanish #general

Jose Gutstein <jmg-miami@...>
 

Being fluent in Spanish, I should caution that such literal translations
sometimes result in very unusual language, to say the least, though I
realize such a Web Site feature IS certainly better than nothing.

I tried the Web Site Stephen Mednick mentioned (see below) using the English
text that he wrote in the posting. The result was a Spanish translation
that, though understandable (especially since I had read the English version
and knew what to expect), produced some strange phrasing and grammar. It
takes words and produces a literal translation, instead of taking phrases at
a time. Spanish doesn't lend itself to such literal translations.

But like I said before, it does at least produce a result that is readable,
though I caution, not in all cases, depending on the intricacy of the
original English text.

Jose Gutstein
JMG-Miami@...


Stephen Mednick wrote:

Thanks very much to Ricki Zunk who put me onto a very useful web site to
help achieve my objective listed below.

The web location is the AltaVista Translations facility and the web
address is http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate? At
this site you can enter text in one language and it will translate it
into another for you. With reference to the letter I wanted to mail, I
cut the text >from the WORD document and pasted it into the text box at
the web site and hit the translate button. After the translated text
appeared, I highlighted the text and hit COPY and then using a new WORD
document pasted the translated text into until I eventually had
constructed the letter I wanted written in Spanish.

The translation facility supports a number of popular languages.
SNIP


Ohel Rahel synagogue #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Subject: Shanghai - Othel Rachel Synagogue
From: "Debbie Raff" >

I just read an article in our Jewish Community News about the restoration
of the Othel Rachel Synagogue in Shanghai.
OTHEL? This looks like a typo. More likely the name would be Ohel Rahel
("Tent of Rachel"). Perhaps someone misread the heh as a taf and therefore
mistranscribed it

Synagogues are quite often called Ohel Sarah, Ohel Rivkah, Ohel Leah, so
why not Ohel Rahel? The use of Ohel ("tent" in biblical Hebrew) with the
name of a matriarch stems >from the fact that the root aleph-heh-lamed in
semitic languages actually means "family" or "tribe." So strictly
speaking these synagogue names connote the concept "descendants of
Sarah/Rebekah , etc." (cf. the Islamic term for the Jews: "ahl-al-kitab"
-- meaning "People of the Book")

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Ohel Rahel synagogue #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Subject: Shanghai - Othel Rachel Synagogue
From: "Debbie Raff" >

I just read an article in our Jewish Community News about the restoration
of the Othel Rachel Synagogue in Shanghai.
OTHEL? This looks like a typo. More likely the name would be Ohel Rahel
("Tent of Rachel"). Perhaps someone misread the heh as a taf and therefore
mistranscribed it

Synagogues are quite often called Ohel Sarah, Ohel Rivkah, Ohel Leah, so
why not Ohel Rahel? The use of Ohel ("tent" in biblical Hebrew) with the
name of a matriarch stems >from the fact that the root aleph-heh-lamed in
semitic languages actually means "family" or "tribe." So strictly
speaking these synagogue names connote the concept "descendants of
Sarah/Rebekah , etc." (cf. the Islamic term for the Jews: "ahl-al-kitab"
-- meaning "People of the Book")

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...


Re: city directories, what they are, what they aren't #general

A. E. Jordan
 

Carol Skydell replies to my offer/request regarding the Hoboken Census:

" One needs to understand several things about city directories in
order to put them into proper perspective.... city directories were compiled
several months before the end of the year * prior* to the year of
publication...and even with that....the directory may be printing an old
address.... did the state of NJ do a census in
1915?..."


Thanks Carol for your reply and you are very right about city directories
being an inexact science. I checked the 1909-1910 and the 1910-1911 and so on
as well as earlier ones and the names and addresses in the city directories do
not line up with the US Census (Federal). Hence my street by street search of
the likely places in Hoboken to find my family.

By the way NJ did do state census for 1895, 1905, 1915 that I know of (not
checked other dates because those would be the only appropriate years for my
family) but >from looking quickly at the 1895 NJ cenus it is a big separate
task. Not had the time yet to look at the 1905 and 1915 census. (FYI for New
Yorkers you can find the NJ state census at the New York Public Library.)

My offer stands if anyone can look on pages they might have for the family
names JORDAN, JOSEPH, LOWENTHAL, PRICE or LUBASCH I would be happy to do the
same on the 1910 Federal Census for Hoboken, NJ pages that I already have.

Also thanks to everyone who already responded to me and I will get back to you
personally just as quickly as I can.

Allan Jordan
aejordan@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: city directories, what they are, what they aren't #general

A. E. Jordan
 

Carol Skydell replies to my offer/request regarding the Hoboken Census:

" One needs to understand several things about city directories in
order to put them into proper perspective.... city directories were compiled
several months before the end of the year * prior* to the year of
publication...and even with that....the directory may be printing an old
address.... did the state of NJ do a census in
1915?..."


Thanks Carol for your reply and you are very right about city directories
being an inexact science. I checked the 1909-1910 and the 1910-1911 and so on
as well as earlier ones and the names and addresses in the city directories do
not line up with the US Census (Federal). Hence my street by street search of
the likely places in Hoboken to find my family.

By the way NJ did do state census for 1895, 1905, 1915 that I know of (not
checked other dates because those would be the only appropriate years for my
family) but >from looking quickly at the 1895 NJ cenus it is a big separate
task. Not had the time yet to look at the 1905 and 1915 census. (FYI for New
Yorkers you can find the NJ state census at the New York Public Library.)

My offer stands if anyone can look on pages they might have for the family
names JORDAN, JOSEPH, LOWENTHAL, PRICE or LUBASCH I would be happy to do the
same on the 1910 Federal Census for Hoboken, NJ pages that I already have.

Also thanks to everyone who already responded to me and I will get back to you
personally just as quickly as I can.

Allan Jordan
aejordan@...


Re: city directories, what they are, what they aren't #general

Carol Skydell <skydell@...>
 

Allan Jordan aejordan@... writes:

Because the 1910 Census is not indexed I tried the city
directories and >my family is not listed in the places the city
directories say they lived -- >go figure. Hence I am searching
Hoboken strret by street right now -- >feels like I am there
walking the streets!

One needs to understand several things about city directories in
order to put them into proper perspective.

First, it is my understanding that they were actually put
together to serve as mailing lists for large companies. Since
they were not something published by the municipality, they do
not carry weight as an "official" document. Genealogists use
them merely as a guide to help locate official documents such as
census records, WWI draft registration, and voter lists

Secondly, city directories were compiled several months before
the end of the year * prior* to the year of publication. Thus,
the 1910 city directory was compiled around October of 1909 and
those are the addresses you see in the 1910 city directory.

What this tells us is that we not only need to check the 1909
directory to attempt to get a handle on the 1910 census
address....we need to look at the 1911 directory as well...and
even with that....the directory may be printing an old address....

And for Allan in particular, did the state of NJ do a census in
1915?...

Hope this helps
Carol Skydell
Chilmark MA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen re: city directories, what they are, what they aren't #general

Carol Skydell <skydell@...>
 

Allan Jordan aejordan@... writes:

Because the 1910 Census is not indexed I tried the city
directories and >my family is not listed in the places the city
directories say they lived -- >go figure. Hence I am searching
Hoboken strret by street right now -- >feels like I am there
walking the streets!

One needs to understand several things about city directories in
order to put them into proper perspective.

First, it is my understanding that they were actually put
together to serve as mailing lists for large companies. Since
they were not something published by the municipality, they do
not carry weight as an "official" document. Genealogists use
them merely as a guide to help locate official documents such as
census records, WWI draft registration, and voter lists

Secondly, city directories were compiled several months before
the end of the year * prior* to the year of publication. Thus,
the 1910 city directory was compiled around October of 1909 and
those are the addresses you see in the 1910 city directory.

What this tells us is that we not only need to check the 1909
directory to attempt to get a handle on the 1910 census
address....we need to look at the 1911 directory as well...and
even with that....the directory may be printing an old address....

And for Allan in particular, did the state of NJ do a census in
1915?...

Hope this helps
Carol Skydell
Chilmark MA