My experience with German records is quite different >from Judith's
experience with English records, even though we're neighbors ;-)}.
In the records >from the Rheinland with which I am most familiar,
ages are in most cases at best approximations and occasionally
grossly inaccurate, whether the ages are of witnesses, declarants,
or decedents (though a few individuals seem to have kept better
track than most). The big exception is in marriage records.

Marriage records usually list the documents that were examined to
establish not only the ages of the married couple but such important
facts as widowhood and freedom to marry without permission (if a bride
or groom's parents are both dead, the death records of the grandparents
may also be examined, for instance). The ages of the couple given on
the marriage record are almost invariably accurate for this reason.
This also means that marriage records are a rich source of ancillary
information. Moreover, unlike birth and death records, which require
only two witnesses (and in the case of birth records fail to specify
the relationship of the witness to the baby), marriage records list
four witnesses.

I have found this thoroughness to raise some tantalizing questions.
Civil registration in this area generally began between 1798 and
1810. But I have seen several early civil marriage records that refer
to birth records predating the start of civil registration and are
therefore the only evidence of the exact birth date of the bride or
groom. Presumably these records were kept by the Jewish community,
but if they are still extant they are certainly not available on
microfilm >from the Family History Library. Are there accessible
sources for these early Jewish records?

Dick Plotz
Providence RI

My experience with German records is quite different >from Judith's
experience with English records, even though we're neighbors ;-)}.
In the records >from the Rheinland with which I am most familiar,
ages are in most cases at best approximations and occasionally
grossly inaccurate, whether the ages are of witnesses, declarants,
or decedents (though a few individuals seem to have kept better
track than most). The big exception is in marriage records.

Marriage records usually list the documents that were examined to
establish not only the ages of the married couple but such important
facts as widowhood and freedom to marry without permission (if a bride
or groom's parents are both dead, the death records of the grandparents
may also be examined, for instance). The ages of the couple given on
the marriage record are almost invariably accurate for this reason.
This also means that marriage records are a rich source of ancillary
information. Moreover, unlike birth and death records, which require
only two witnesses (and in the case of birth records fail to specify
the relationship of the witness to the baby), marriage records list
four witnesses.

I have found this thoroughness to raise some tantalizing questions.
Civil registration in this area generally began between 1798 and
1810. But I have seen several early civil marriage records that refer
to birth records predating the start of civil registration and are
therefore the only evidence of the exact birth date of the bride or
groom. Presumably these records were kept by the Jewish community,
but if they are still extant they are certainly not available on
microfilm >from the Family History Library. Are there accessible
sources for these early Jewish records?

Dick Plotz
Providence RI

In a recent post, Drew Techner said:

Mr. Gross advised members to avoid publishing their
surnames as a method of research.

I wish to correct this. I never used the word "avoid".
I was simply suggesting that the quantity of surname posts
on this listserve seems to show several using this forum to
find people. Though it may be a remote way of finding a relative,
I never said that it was impossible or foolish to try.

James Gross
LARKLANE@JUNO.COM

In a recent post, Drew Techner said:

Mr. Gross advised members to avoid publishing their
surnames as a method of research.

I wish to correct this. I never used the word "avoid".
I was simply suggesting that the quantity of surname posts
on this listserve seems to show several using this forum to
find people. Though it may be a remote way of finding a relative,
I never said that it was impossible or foolish to try.

James Gross
LARKLANE@JUNO.COM

I wish to add a couple of new points to what was a previously ended thread:

I) Concerning weddings on Fridays:

Herbert Lazerow wrote:

I have been told that the Talmud declares
that virgins are married on Wednesday, widows on Thursday.

...............
Judith Romney Wegner <jrw@Brown.edu> wrote:
Actually, your informant was in error: he/she has misunderstood the
force of the relevant mishnaic rule. It was and is perfectly O.K. to get
married on other days of the week (except Friday and Shabbat).

...............

a widow could get married as late as Thursday ....
Friday and Shabbat were "out" due to religious requirements of
preparing for Shabbat and of Shabbat observance itself.

Although this is discourged, in the case that circumstances are urgent,
weddings can be held even on a Friday afternoon.

I have personally seen a (orthodox) chupa take place right before
the Friday Night synagogue service for a couple who didn't have
many family and friends and wanted the quick wedding when there were a
lot of people around.

Of course, the chupa had to be before sunset, so as not to violate Shabbat.

II) A small point to add to Michael Bernet's posting:

MBernet@aol.com wrote:

In Eastern Europe it was more customary to marry during the evening, in
Western Europe more common to marry during the day. Ketubot for evening
marriages often were dated "Or leyom Sheni" which, for reasons I won't go
into, referred to the evening before Yom Sheni (Monday).

Business is made not to hold the chupa at the time between the beginning
of sunset till when it gets completely dark (when the stars appear).
This is because we are not sure whether to refer to the wedding date
on the ketuba, according to the day that is finishing or the day that
is starting. A ketuba, being a legal document, shouldn't contain
ambiguities.
--
David Ziants
davidz@netmedia.net.il
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

MODERATOR NOTE: Although the thread is closed this
message adds new information on the subject and is,
therefore, being posted.

I wish to add a couple of new points to what was a previously ended thread:

I) Concerning weddings on Fridays:

Herbert Lazerow wrote:

I have been told that the Talmud declares
that virgins are married on Wednesday, widows on Thursday.

...............
Judith Romney Wegner <jrw@Brown.edu> wrote:
Actually, your informant was in error: he/she has misunderstood the
force of the relevant mishnaic rule. It was and is perfectly O.K. to get
married on other days of the week (except Friday and Shabbat).

...............

a widow could get married as late as Thursday ....
Friday and Shabbat were "out" due to religious requirements of
preparing for Shabbat and of Shabbat observance itself.

Although this is discourged, in the case that circumstances are urgent,
weddings can be held even on a Friday afternoon.

I have personally seen a (orthodox) chupa take place right before
the Friday Night synagogue service for a couple who didn't have
many family and friends and wanted the quick wedding when there were a
lot of people around.

Of course, the chupa had to be before sunset, so as not to violate Shabbat.

II) A small point to add to Michael Bernet's posting:

MBernet@aol.com wrote:

In Eastern Europe it was more customary to marry during the evening, in
Western Europe more common to marry during the day. Ketubot for evening
marriages often were dated "Or leyom Sheni" which, for reasons I won't go
into, referred to the evening before Yom Sheni (Monday).

Business is made not to hold the chupa at the time between the beginning
of sunset till when it gets completely dark (when the stars appear).
This is because we are not sure whether to refer to the wedding date
on the ketuba, according to the day that is finishing or the day that
is starting. A ketuba, being a legal document, shouldn't contain
ambiguities.
--
David Ziants
davidz@netmedia.net.il
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

MODERATOR NOTE: Although the thread is closed this
message adds new information on the subject and is,
therefore, being posted.

From: ogus@IMPACT.xerox.com (Roy Ogus)

Is anyone planning to visit Mt. Carmel Cemetery, in Glendale, NY, in
the near future?

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could locate a few family
gravesites in the cemetery, and either photograph the gravestones for
me, or write down the information >from the gravestones for me.

I have the same request, if anyone is going. My ggf & ggm are buried
there, and I would like to have photos or at least the headstone info.

Thanks,
//Corin Barsily Goodwin
Cupertino, CA USA
corin@concentric.net

Searching:

BARSILA/BARZILY/BARZILOV -- Russia; Scotland; NYC
BASOK/BARSACH -- Orsha, Belarus; Scotland; NYC; Providence, RI
BRAUN -- Hungary; NYC ...DU BOFF/MEISTROFF -- Russia; NYC & Long Island
KANEFSKY/KANEVSKY and RIVKIN -- Elizabetgrod (Kirovgrod), Ukraine; NYC
SIGAAR -- Holland ...VAN SANTEN -- Amsterdam; NYC
WEISS -- Hungary; NYC; Middlesex, NJ

From: ogus@IMPACT.xerox.com (Roy Ogus)

Is anyone planning to visit Mt. Carmel Cemetery, in Glendale, NY, in
the near future?

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could locate a few family
gravesites in the cemetery, and either photograph the gravestones for
me, or write down the information >from the gravestones for me.

I have the same request, if anyone is going. My ggf & ggm are buried
there, and I would like to have photos or at least the headstone info.

Thanks,
//Corin Barsily Goodwin
Cupertino, CA USA
corin@concentric.net

Searching:

BARSILA/BARZILY/BARZILOV -- Russia; Scotland; NYC
BASOK/BARSACH -- Orsha, Belarus; Scotland; NYC; Providence, RI
BRAUN -- Hungary; NYC ...DU BOFF/MEISTROFF -- Russia; NYC & Long Island
KANEFSKY/KANEVSKY and RIVKIN -- Elizabetgrod (Kirovgrod), Ukraine; NYC
SIGAAR -- Holland ...VAN SANTEN -- Amsterdam; NYC
WEISS -- Hungary; NYC; Middlesex, NJ

Hi

I am searching info on a company or organization that sold land
to jewish individuals in Eastern Europe around the beginning of
the century. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
TIA
Sam Lenger <sdfisr@shani.net>

Hi

I am searching info on a company or organization that sold land
to jewish individuals in Eastern Europe around the beginning of
the century. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
TIA
Sam Lenger <sdfisr@shani.net>

I recently discovered that my grandmother, Nettie (Nechi)
RING (born 1859,died 1941) had cousins living in New York.
Their names are Hirsh GUTWIRTH and Solcha GUTWIRTH (spelling?)
Does anyone know of these people and/or their families.. My
grandmother's maiden name was PENSICK (sp?) and she lived in NJ.

Selma Ring Prager
Springfield,NJ.

MODERATOR NOTE: Enter the surnames in the JewishGen
Family Finder (JGFF). It can be accessed >from our
homepage: http://www.jewishgen.org Other people
researching the same names will be able to see it in
future searches.

I recently discovered that my grandmother, Nettie (Nechi)
RING (born 1859,died 1941) had cousins living in New York.
Their names are Hirsh GUTWIRTH and Solcha GUTWIRTH (spelling?)
Does anyone know of these people and/or their families.. My
grandmother's maiden name was PENSICK (sp?) and she lived in NJ.

Selma Ring Prager
Springfield,NJ.

MODERATOR NOTE: Enter the surnames in the JewishGen
Family Finder (JGFF). It can be accessed >from our
homepage: http://www.jewishgen.org Other people
researching the same names will be able to see it in
future searches.

Hi All:

I posted this question several months ago, but I think it got lost to
most when the old servers went down.

My maternal great grandfather, Louis KRAMER, died in Philadelphia, PA,
on July 17, 1932. According to his death certificate his father's name
was listed as SIO. I have never seen nor heard of the name, "Sio"
before or since.

Does this name mean anything? Is it a derivative of some other name?
Is is Hebrew, Yiddish, German, or what? I'm stumped, having looked
through several books about given names. Unfortunately, I cannot get a
reading of the tombstone on his grave, as I was told that it has fallen
over, face down, onto the grave, and I cannot get any cooperation from
the cemetery to "right" this situation. According to the tombstones of
Louis' daughter and son (who are also buried in the same cemetery) they
are recorded as being the daughter and the son of Eliezer. So we know
that his "formal" Hebrew name was Eliezer. When he died he was about 64
years old. His wife was about 56 years old, and she had all of her
faculties (until her death at age 85). She was fluent in English from
the 1890s on, so language was not an issue when she spoke to the the
people who made out the death certificate.

I am very curious, and very anxious to learn more about this strange (at
least to me) given name of "Sio."

TIA,
Ricki Lynn Randall Zunk
Miami, FL
<rickiz@mindspring.com>

Hi All:

I posted this question several months ago, but I think it got lost to
most when the old servers went down.

My maternal great grandfather, Louis KRAMER, died in Philadelphia, PA,
on July 17, 1932. According to his death certificate his father's name
was listed as SIO. I have never seen nor heard of the name, "Sio"
before or since.

Does this name mean anything? Is it a derivative of some other name?
Is is Hebrew, Yiddish, German, or what? I'm stumped, having looked
through several books about given names. Unfortunately, I cannot get a
reading of the tombstone on his grave, as I was told that it has fallen
over, face down, onto the grave, and I cannot get any cooperation from
the cemetery to "right" this situation. According to the tombstones of
Louis' daughter and son (who are also buried in the same cemetery) they
are recorded as being the daughter and the son of Eliezer. So we know
that his "formal" Hebrew name was Eliezer. When he died he was about 64
years old. His wife was about 56 years old, and she had all of her
faculties (until her death at age 85). She was fluent in English from
the 1890s on, so language was not an issue when she spoke to the the
people who made out the death certificate.

I am very curious, and very anxious to learn more about this strange (at
least to me) given name of "Sio."

TIA,
Ricki Lynn Randall Zunk
Miami, FL
<rickiz@mindspring.com>

In the Naturalization papers of my g-mother, on the Declaration of
Intention it indicates she was born in Boguelavicik, Lithuania; on the
Petition for Citizenship, the town is spelled Boguelavick and
Bogoelavick.

I could not find any of these spellings or anything close in Chester
Cohen's Shtetl Finder, or in JewishGen's ShtetlSeeker. However, in
Schoenburg's Lithuanian Jewish Communities there is a Bogoslavishok
which is also in the ShtetlSeeker. Is Bogoslavishok the same as
Boguelavicik?

Thank you,
Marcia KATZEL DeVries
Coarsegold, Calif.
marciadv@sierratel.com

In the Naturalization papers of my g-mother, on the Declaration of
Intention it indicates she was born in Boguelavicik, Lithuania; on the
Petition for Citizenship, the town is spelled Boguelavick and
Bogoelavick.

I could not find any of these spellings or anything close in Chester
Cohen's Shtetl Finder, or in JewishGen's ShtetlSeeker. However, in
Schoenburg's Lithuanian Jewish Communities there is a Bogoslavishok
which is also in the ShtetlSeeker. Is Bogoslavishok the same as
Boguelavicik?

Thank you,
Marcia KATZEL DeVries
Coarsegold, Calif.
marciadv@sierratel.com

Many new members of the Jewish genealogical community join JewishGen
each year and haven't yet had a chance to register with the JGFF,
JRI, Family Tree of the Jewish People, etc. Therefore, I post this
message just one time a year in the hope to establish a connection
with these new researchers.

MARKOWICZ/MARKOWITZ
SILVERSTEIN/ZYLBERSZTAJN Piotrkow Trybunalski, Poland
GOLDSTEIN/GOLDSZTAJN
LITMAN/LITMANOWICZ

POLTOWSKY Auschwitz/Oswiecim. Piotrkow T., Poland

ZOLOTNITSKY Priluki, Ukraine
KHABIN/GABAIN

ROZENBERG Przasnysz, Poland
PYSZNA/PAZNER
OVZIC

MORGENSTERN Luzna/Gorlice, Poland
OLINER/ALENAR

MALINGER Tabaszowa/Nowy Sacz, Poland
BIRN/BIREN

Please respond privately.

Len Markowitz priluki@voicenet.com

Many new members of the Jewish genealogical community join JewishGen
each year and haven't yet had a chance to register with the JGFF,
JRI, Family Tree of the Jewish People, etc. Therefore, I post this
message just one time a year in the hope to establish a connection
with these new researchers.

MARKOWICZ/MARKOWITZ
SILVERSTEIN/ZYLBERSZTAJN Piotrkow Trybunalski, Poland
GOLDSTEIN/GOLDSZTAJN
LITMAN/LITMANOWICZ

POLTOWSKY Auschwitz/Oswiecim. Piotrkow T., Poland

ZOLOTNITSKY Priluki, Ukraine
KHABIN/GABAIN

ROZENBERG Przasnysz, Poland
PYSZNA/PAZNER
OVZIC

MORGENSTERN Luzna/Gorlice, Poland
OLINER/ALENAR

MALINGER Tabaszowa/Nowy Sacz, Poland
BIRN/BIREN

Please respond privately.

Len Markowitz priluki@voicenet.com

I started trying to thank everyone who replied in person but
there were so many! Thank you all for your help. Several
people stated that the reason I was unable to find the word
"Fernsprecher" ('far-speaker' i.e. telephone) in a current
dictionary is that it is a very outdated word, and was most
likely used because of the Nazi's desire to purge "foreign"
words out of the language. The letter is >from December of
1936 which would be consistent with that explanation.
Thanks again all who responded!

Elissa Peskay
Mpls, MN

MODERATOR NOTE: Since the original question has been
answered satisfactorily, we can now close this thread.

I started trying to thank everyone who replied in person but
there were so many! Thank you all for your help. Several
people stated that the reason I was unable to find the word
"Fernsprecher" ('far-speaker' i.e. telephone) in a current
dictionary is that it is a very outdated word, and was most
likely used because of the Nazi's desire to purge "foreign"
words out of the language. The letter is >from December of
1936 which would be consistent with that explanation.
Thanks again all who responded!

Elissa Peskay
Mpls, MN

MODERATOR NOTE: Since the original question has been
answered satisfactorily, we can now close this thread.