Date   

Re: Conscripto Judeorum #hungary

Ujlaki Gyorgy <ujlaki.gyorgy@...>
 

melody gross <melody@gimby.save-net.co.il> 1998.10.31. 07:11:56 +2h-kor irta:

Dear Meéody,

My answers might be of general interest, so let me post it to the whole group!

Thanks for your quick reply. I am searching Amsels of northeastern
Slovakia, but this personal work has been surpassed by my latest project,
studying the town Sztropko (Stropkov), Slovakia.

Therefore, I am interested especially in referencers ro Sztropko. Can you
help me out?

Does the preface refer to Sztropko at all?
No! The 1725-1748 conscriptions do not have Sztropko. In 1725-1728 in the
whole of Zemplen county there were 78 Jewish families in 58 settlements.

A report dated June 21 1768 >from Satoraljaujhely states, that the county could not
conscribe the Jews of Zemplen county, because they are continously changing
their addresses.

Are there Jews >from Sztropko in the conscription lists? I assume that the
conscriptions were for battles against the Poles, possibly the Turks, and
the Hungarians (against the Catholic Hapsburgs) Which of these would be
correct?
I think, that conscritions were for collecting taxes >from Jews: that's why the Govt.
had to know how many horses, cows, sheeps, etc. Jews had.

(Sztropko is in northeastern Slovakia on the Polish border.) Were
Jews actually conscripted then? I thought that Jozef II first conscripted
the Jews.
There were partial (not national) Jewish conscriptions as early, as the 1564
conscription of Kismarton (Eisenstadt). It was published in MZSO. vol.II, no.32.

Do you have access to conscription records of later years--1848? 1867?
1914?

No, besides the 1848 conscription of Rohoncz/Rechnitz, and Szentes/Mindszent.

I would be most grateful if you could direct me, or do a look-up for me, as
well!

When you say "old names", you mean those before Jozef II's edict in 1787,
obviously. Do you mean that prior to that, Jews called themselves "son of"
in the local language, i.e. Moskovits, son of Mosko (Moshe)? I see in my
research that even after 1788, in the 1812 Census, some Jews of Sztropko
used this Slavic form, and not necessarily a German surname. Others did
use German names.
They are listed by old names. E.g. in Slavic speaking areas (East Hungary), name
and fathers's name plus -ovics: Abraham Herskovics, Volff Zelmanovics, Markus
Samsonovics.
In German speaking areas (W.Hungary): name and father's name: Lebl Mojses,
Wolfgangus Izrael, Salamon Michll. Sometimes occupation is given: Ebedt
Fleischhaker, Cain Schreiber, Tretsll Sneider, place of origin: Isaac Turkischer,
Hirsl Hollesan, Jommel Slezinger. Some have Hungarian surnames: Jacob
Kossuth (Vag Ujhel-Vagujhely), Abraham Voros, Slovak surnames: Wolff Vlcsek,
Abraham Viszoky, Hersl Midlac.

Would this mean that in that isolated part of the
country, German names were not strictly enforced?
German names were not required before the name order of 1787.

Fenyes Elek, Magyarorszah geographiai szotara. Vol. I-IV. Budapest 1851.
Reprint Budapest 1984.

Vol. IV. p. 163.: Sztropko, Slovak county town in Zemplen county. 1542 Roman
Catholics, 114 Greek Catholics, 10 Lutherans, 550Jews. There is a Catholic
church and a synagogue. It has large market. It has good meadows by Ondava
(river). It has forest and 1284 hold agricultural land. There is a castle, that has
been a target of Polish attacks.

Number of Jews in Sztropko:

Absolute number: As percentage of total population:

1840 1880 1910 1840 1880 1910

555 866 1141 22.7 43.3 44.1

The Borsod-Abauj-Zemplen Megyei Leveltar Satorlajaujhelyi Fiokleveltara
3980 Satorlajaujhely
Kossuth ter 5.
tel 36-41-21353 (looks like an old number.) has:

matrikula (birth, marriage, death) >from Sztropko and vicinity 1833-1874.

Best wishes,

Gyuri
--
Ujlaki Gyorgy
Budapest, Hungary
ujlaki.gyorgy@drotposta.hu
ujlaki_gyorgy@hotmail.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Conscripto Judeorum #hungary

Ujlaki Gyorgy <ujlaki.gyorgy@...>
 

melody gross <melody@gimby.save-net.co.il> 1998.10.31. 07:11:56 +2h-kor irta:

Dear Meéody,

My answers might be of general interest, so let me post it to the whole group!

Thanks for your quick reply. I am searching Amsels of northeastern
Slovakia, but this personal work has been surpassed by my latest project,
studying the town Sztropko (Stropkov), Slovakia.

Therefore, I am interested especially in referencers ro Sztropko. Can you
help me out?

Does the preface refer to Sztropko at all?
No! The 1725-1748 conscriptions do not have Sztropko. In 1725-1728 in the
whole of Zemplen county there were 78 Jewish families in 58 settlements.

A report dated June 21 1768 >from Satoraljaujhely states, that the county could not
conscribe the Jews of Zemplen county, because they are continously changing
their addresses.

Are there Jews >from Sztropko in the conscription lists? I assume that the
conscriptions were for battles against the Poles, possibly the Turks, and
the Hungarians (against the Catholic Hapsburgs) Which of these would be
correct?
I think, that conscritions were for collecting taxes >from Jews: that's why the Govt.
had to know how many horses, cows, sheeps, etc. Jews had.

(Sztropko is in northeastern Slovakia on the Polish border.) Were
Jews actually conscripted then? I thought that Jozef II first conscripted
the Jews.
There were partial (not national) Jewish conscriptions as early, as the 1564
conscription of Kismarton (Eisenstadt). It was published in MZSO. vol.II, no.32.

Do you have access to conscription records of later years--1848? 1867?
1914?

No, besides the 1848 conscription of Rohoncz/Rechnitz, and Szentes/Mindszent.

I would be most grateful if you could direct me, or do a look-up for me, as
well!

When you say "old names", you mean those before Jozef II's edict in 1787,
obviously. Do you mean that prior to that, Jews called themselves "son of"
in the local language, i.e. Moskovits, son of Mosko (Moshe)? I see in my
research that even after 1788, in the 1812 Census, some Jews of Sztropko
used this Slavic form, and not necessarily a German surname. Others did
use German names.
They are listed by old names. E.g. in Slavic speaking areas (East Hungary), name
and fathers's name plus -ovics: Abraham Herskovics, Volff Zelmanovics, Markus
Samsonovics.
In German speaking areas (W.Hungary): name and father's name: Lebl Mojses,
Wolfgangus Izrael, Salamon Michll. Sometimes occupation is given: Ebedt
Fleischhaker, Cain Schreiber, Tretsll Sneider, place of origin: Isaac Turkischer,
Hirsl Hollesan, Jommel Slezinger. Some have Hungarian surnames: Jacob
Kossuth (Vag Ujhel-Vagujhely), Abraham Voros, Slovak surnames: Wolff Vlcsek,
Abraham Viszoky, Hersl Midlac.

Would this mean that in that isolated part of the
country, German names were not strictly enforced?
German names were not required before the name order of 1787.

Fenyes Elek, Magyarorszah geographiai szotara. Vol. I-IV. Budapest 1851.
Reprint Budapest 1984.

Vol. IV. p. 163.: Sztropko, Slovak county town in Zemplen county. 1542 Roman
Catholics, 114 Greek Catholics, 10 Lutherans, 550Jews. There is a Catholic
church and a synagogue. It has large market. It has good meadows by Ondava
(river). It has forest and 1284 hold agricultural land. There is a castle, that has
been a target of Polish attacks.

Number of Jews in Sztropko:

Absolute number: As percentage of total population:

1840 1880 1910 1840 1880 1910

555 866 1141 22.7 43.3 44.1

The Borsod-Abauj-Zemplen Megyei Leveltar Satorlajaujhelyi Fiokleveltara
3980 Satorlajaujhely
Kossuth ter 5.
tel 36-41-21353 (looks like an old number.) has:

matrikula (birth, marriage, death) >from Sztropko and vicinity 1833-1874.

Best wishes,

Gyuri
--
Ujlaki Gyorgy
Budapest, Hungary
ujlaki.gyorgy@drotposta.hu
ujlaki_gyorgy@hotmail.com


* Hungarian and Slovakian names #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Dear all,

I found a very interesting site. It's called "Onomastycon". The author
features enormous listings of given names, surnames, diminutives and a
brief history of most countries in the world. The page related to Polish,
Hungarian, Czech and Slovakian names is this:
http://www.fairacre.demon.co.uk/Europe-Eastern/Eastern/

Really worth a peek.

Note: I briefly browsed the list. There are some mistakes and names
missing. Still it is a very helpful resource for genealogical research.

have a nice weekend
Tom


*Re: ship manifests on computer #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Not quite, I read at JewishGen that there is a joint effort going between
the Ellis Island authorities and the LDS to put those records on the
computer. Hundreds of volunteers have been recruited and they are working
on it. Of course, as you mention, translating handwriting is a very morose
task. I hope to be alive when all this is finished :)

tom

at 30/10/98 - 03:45 -0200, Jordan Auslander wrote:

ALL ship manifests >from Ellis Island on computer at Ellis Island!?
Not quite (where did you here this?). All that you hear has to be taken
with a block of salt (especially when dealing with the internet). The
Ellis Island people would like to set up a machine readable index of
arrivals by simply scanning in capies of the manifests. I personally
gave them their reality check. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it. But
we are dealing with, at best, microfilm copies most hand written. Don't
expect this to be available in this millenium.

Jordan Auslander


Hungary SIG #Hungary * Hungarian and Slovakian names #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Dear all,

I found a very interesting site. It's called "Onomastycon". The author
features enormous listings of given names, surnames, diminutives and a
brief history of most countries in the world. The page related to Polish,
Hungarian, Czech and Slovakian names is this:
http://www.fairacre.demon.co.uk/Europe-Eastern/Eastern/

Really worth a peek.

Note: I briefly browsed the list. There are some mistakes and names
missing. Still it is a very helpful resource for genealogical research.

have a nice weekend
Tom


Hungary SIG #Hungary *Re: ship manifests on computer #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Not quite, I read at JewishGen that there is a joint effort going between
the Ellis Island authorities and the LDS to put those records on the
computer. Hundreds of volunteers have been recruited and they are working
on it. Of course, as you mention, translating handwriting is a very morose
task. I hope to be alive when all this is finished :)

tom

at 30/10/98 - 03:45 -0200, Jordan Auslander wrote:

ALL ship manifests >from Ellis Island on computer at Ellis Island!?
Not quite (where did you here this?). All that you hear has to be taken
with a block of salt (especially when dealing with the internet). The
Ellis Island people would like to set up a machine readable index of
arrivals by simply scanning in capies of the manifests. I personally
gave them their reality check. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it. But
we are dealing with, at best, microfilm copies most hand written. Don't
expect this to be available in this millenium.

Jordan Auslander


Re: Ellis Island #galicia

BABSK@...
 

=======================================================

ELLIS ISLAND TO GET FAMILY HISTORY RESEARCH CENTER
<<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>>
=======================================================
(Press Release October 28, 1998)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is playing a key role in the establishment of a family history research center on New York's Ellis Island, where in two years the public will have automated access to a computerized database containing 17 million U.S. immigration records.

At a news conference today on the island, Statue of Liberty-Ellis Island Foundation Chairman Emeritus, Lee Iacocca announced plans for the American> Family Immigration History Center, expected to open in the year 2000.

During the past five years, the Church, in cooperation with the foundation and the National Park Service, has spent more than two million volunteer hours digitizing Ellis Island records. To date, 65 percent of the records have been extracted >from microfilmed copies of the original ledgers - passenger records and ships' manifests - which were mostly hand-written, faded and damaged. The original documents were destroyed years ago.

The remaining 35 percent of the records will be extracted and digitized by the opening of the center, which will be situated in the Ellis Island Immigration Museum. The center will house tate-of-the-art interactive computer technology that will bring family documentation and genealogical exploration to visitors.

The Ellis Island records represent some 60 percent of all U.S. immigration records. It is estimated that more than 100 million Americans today can trace their roots to immigrants who passed through Ellis Island between 1892 > and 1924.

The Family History Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is a world leader in genealogical research with more than 3,200 family history centers worldwide, and the world's largest collection of family history records, housed in Salt Lake City.
*************************************************************
This press release is available online at:
http://www.lds.org/en/4_News_Update/19981028_Ellis_Island_FHC.html
=======================================================
Please feel free to circulate this newsletter to other genealogy
enthusiasts! We hope that you will also credit the Ancestry Daily News as the source.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Ellis Island #hungary

BABSK@...
 

=======================================================

ELLIS ISLAND TO GET FAMILY HISTORY RESEARCH CENTER
<<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>><<<>>>
=======================================================
(Press Release October 28, 1998)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is playing a key role in the establishment of a family history research center on New York's Ellis Island, where in two years the public will have automated access to a computerized database containing 17 million U.S. immigration records.

At a news conference today on the island, Statue of Liberty-Ellis Island Foundation Chairman Emeritus, Lee Iacocca announced plans for the American> Family Immigration History Center, expected to open in the year 2000.

During the past five years, the Church, in cooperation with the foundation and the National Park Service, has spent more than two million volunteer hours digitizing Ellis Island records. To date, 65 percent of the records have been extracted >from microfilmed copies of the original ledgers - passenger records and ships' manifests - which were mostly hand-written, faded and damaged. The original documents were destroyed years ago.

The remaining 35 percent of the records will be extracted and digitized by the opening of the center, which will be situated in the Ellis Island Immigration Museum. The center will house tate-of-the-art interactive computer technology that will bring family documentation and genealogical exploration to visitors.

The Ellis Island records represent some 60 percent of all U.S. immigration records. It is estimated that more than 100 million Americans today can trace their roots to immigrants who passed through Ellis Island between 1892 > and 1924.

The Family History Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is a world leader in genealogical research with more than 3,200 family history centers worldwide, and the world's largest collection of family history records, housed in Salt Lake City.
*************************************************************
This press release is available online at:
http://www.lds.org/en/4_News_Update/19981028_Ellis_Island_FHC.html
=======================================================
Please feel free to circulate this newsletter to other genealogy
enthusiasts! We hope that you will also credit the Ancestry Daily News as the source.


Re: Conscriptio Judaeorum 1725-1775 #hungary

Judith D Bennett <benne034@...>
 

I have used the FHL Conscriptiones Judaeorum. This past March I ordered in two
of the films trying to "hit" Trencsen Megye. As I recall I located several
communities I was familiar with in Trencsen and went through them carefully,
but every list of names I looked at followed the pattern of (forgive the
English) "Solomon David, Joseph Elias, Joshua Moses etc" In other words, son
and father, all first names. I went through both of the reels I ordered and
found them interesting but I was unable to use them for any tracing of family.

I know now (and did then)that I need to make Journal entries for eveything I
look at, useful (at the moment) or not, since one never knows.

Judy Deutsch Bennett benne034@tc.umn.edu

DEUTSCH: Rajec, Kunjerad, Tvrdosin: Trencsen Megye
GANS: Rajec, Kunjerad: Trencsen Megye
FEINER: Povaska Bystrica
ROSENBLUM, GROSSMAN: Mikova, Kurima, Barejev: Saris, Zemplen
KLEIN, ALPERT: Grodno, Skidel
MUSIKANSKY: Chernigov




On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:15:29 -0700,
h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org wrote...

The FHL has the Conscriptiones Judaeorum for 1725-1775 on seven
films--Europe Film Area 1529693 through 1529699. According to the catalog
entry, info includes the name of the head of house, sometimes wife's and
children's, sometimes just number of family members, number of servants and
their religion, name of landlord on whose land they lived, possessions and
taxes assessed. Arranged by alphabetical order of counties but the latin
spelling of county names if often quite different >from original and
commonly known Hungarian spelling. Like the 1828 census, unless you know
family names already, this data is difficult to use because no surnames are
given.

I have not yet used this information. Would be helpful to know which
counties are included. The catalog says that most of the recoreds are from
areas that are in presentday Hungary, Slovakia, subcarpathian Ukraine, and
Burgenland.

Vivian Kahn



Re: Censuses from the 1700s #hungary

korman3@...
 

The Mormons have 2 censuses >from the late 1700s. The catalog
descriptions say that they are not too useful because surnames were not
in use at that time. However, I have not seen them so I can't say that
this is true. Many Jews had surnames before 1800, especially Sephardim.

Debbi


Hungary SIG #Hungary RE: Conscriptio Judaeorum 1725-1775 #hungary

Judith D Bennett <benne034@...>
 

I have used the FHL Conscriptiones Judaeorum. This past March I ordered in two
of the films trying to "hit" Trencsen Megye. As I recall I located several
communities I was familiar with in Trencsen and went through them carefully,
but every list of names I looked at followed the pattern of (forgive the
English) "Solomon David, Joseph Elias, Joshua Moses etc" In other words, son
and father, all first names. I went through both of the reels I ordered and
found them interesting but I was unable to use them for any tracing of family.

I know now (and did then)that I need to make Journal entries for eveything I
look at, useful (at the moment) or not, since one never knows.

Judy Deutsch Bennett benne034@tc.umn.edu

DEUTSCH: Rajec, Kunjerad, Tvrdosin: Trencsen Megye
GANS: Rajec, Kunjerad: Trencsen Megye
FEINER: Povaska Bystrica
ROSENBLUM, GROSSMAN: Mikova, Kurima, Barejev: Saris, Zemplen
KLEIN, ALPERT: Grodno, Skidel
MUSIKANSKY: Chernigov




On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:15:29 -0700,
h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org wrote...

The FHL has the Conscriptiones Judaeorum for 1725-1775 on seven
films--Europe Film Area 1529693 through 1529699. According to the catalog
entry, info includes the name of the head of house, sometimes wife's and
children's, sometimes just number of family members, number of servants and
their religion, name of landlord on whose land they lived, possessions and
taxes assessed. Arranged by alphabetical order of counties but the latin
spelling of county names if often quite different >from original and
commonly known Hungarian spelling. Like the 1828 census, unless you know
family names already, this data is difficult to use because no surnames are
given.

I have not yet used this information. Would be helpful to know which
counties are included. The catalog says that most of the recoreds are from
areas that are in presentday Hungary, Slovakia, subcarpathian Ukraine, and
Burgenland.

Vivian Kahn



Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Censuses from the 1700s #hungary

korman3@...
 

The Mormons have 2 censuses >from the late 1700s. The catalog
descriptions say that they are not too useful because surnames were not
in use at that time. However, I have not seen them so I can't say that
this is true. Many Jews had surnames before 1800, especially Sephardim.

Debbi


attachments on mailing lists/ decoding mime etc. #hungary

Carol Skydell <skydell@...>
 

Folks, I think the confusion is caused by the fact we are
calling a mailing list a newsgroup.

This forum is a mailing list, not a newsgroup as the term is
used in the land of cyberspace. The JewishGen Discussion Group
is a mailing list, which happens to be mirrored to a newsgroup
called soc.genealogy.jewish The Hungarian SIG discussion group
is a mailing list that is not mirrored to anything.

What I said and what I intended for Lou to inform the group was
that this mailing list can neither receive nor send
attachments. Whether this applies to all mailing lists, I don't
have a clue. The only ones I know and love are those on
JewishGen <VBG>

As to Professor Hirshhorn's request regarding instructions to
decoding mime....he writes:

How can I decode "mime format " on my MS Internet Explorer 4?
Manynare in
the same boat and would greatly appreciate step by step
procedures. regards
fromChayim.

Here's the answer to that, and here I'm reporting what was told
to me since I always go to higher authority for technical advice
<grin>

MicroSoft Internet Explorer 4 is *not* a mail reader, it's a
web browser... so it isn't even clear what the Professor is
asking.

I guess the lesson in all this is that we need to be
specific in our terminology since this cyberspace place is so
new to us all!
If I caused any confusion I apologize.

Carol Skydell


Hungary SIG #Hungary attachments on mailing lists/ decoding mime etc. #hungary

Carol Skydell <skydell@...>
 

Folks, I think the confusion is caused by the fact we are
calling a mailing list a newsgroup.

This forum is a mailing list, not a newsgroup as the term is
used in the land of cyberspace. The JewishGen Discussion Group
is a mailing list, which happens to be mirrored to a newsgroup
called soc.genealogy.jewish The Hungarian SIG discussion group
is a mailing list that is not mirrored to anything.

What I said and what I intended for Lou to inform the group was
that this mailing list can neither receive nor send
attachments. Whether this applies to all mailing lists, I don't
have a clue. The only ones I know and love are those on
JewishGen <VBG>

As to Professor Hirshhorn's request regarding instructions to
decoding mime....he writes:

How can I decode "mime format " on my MS Internet Explorer 4?
Manynare in
the same boat and would greatly appreciate step by step
procedures. regards
fromChayim.

Here's the answer to that, and here I'm reporting what was told
to me since I always go to higher authority for technical advice
<grin>

MicroSoft Internet Explorer 4 is *not* a mail reader, it's a
web browser... so it isn't even clear what the Professor is
asking.

I guess the lesson in all this is that we need to be
specific in our terminology since this cyberspace place is so
new to us all!
If I caused any confusion I apologize.

Carol Skydell


Re: Nowy Sacz #galicia

NFatouros@...
 

Dear People,

In one of his messages on October 30, 1998, Mel Wolfson wanted to learn
about Nowy Sacz.

The first historical mention of Jews in the town was in 1409. (According to
my Gazetteer the town was founded in 1204.) During the 19th century a famous
Rabbi, Chaim Ben Arieh Lejb Halberstam lived there. About 150,000 Jews lived in
the city and nearby towns before WWI. Most of these were carted off to Belzec
and exterminated. There were also about 25,000 people buried in the area,
groups of whom were executed en masse. The synagogue was abandoned. (This
information comes largely >from Joram Kagan, Poland's Jewish Heritage,
(Hippocrene Books, 1992). However, another book, Ruth Gruber "Jewish
Heritage Travel," (John Wiley & Sons,Inc.1994) says that "[t]he main
synagogue, built in 1746, is now an art gallery." I don't know whether the one
in the Kagan book is the same as that in the Gruber book.)

There are two Yizkor (memorial) books concerning Nowy Sacz:

Le-sekher kehilat Tsants [In memory of the Community of Tsants]. Ed.
Ya'ahovi Tefuhah. Jerusalem: Bet ha-sefer ha-tikhon ha-dati la-banot Oylinsh
di Rotshild, (1967/68). In Hebrew.

Sefer Sants [The Book of the Jewish Comunity of Nowy Sacz, Ed. R.
Mahler, New York: Former Residents of Sants in New York, 1970. In Hebrew and
Yiddish.

(Again, according to my old gazetteer, during WWII, when the Germans
occupied it, it was called "Neu Sandez." There was or is a salmon hatchery,
probably on the Dunajee River,and there was or is manufacturing of tools,
chemicals , cement and bricks; flour milling and lumbering. There are nearby
brown coal deposits.)

When YIVO reopens next year, one of the staff might be able to tell Mr.
Wolfson whether there is a Sants Society and maybe even the name of a person
to whom Mr.Wolfson should write for more information, but I am almost certain
other Jewishgenner will write to him and tell him what they know.

Naomi Fatouros


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Nowy Sacz #general

NFatouros@...
 

Dear People,

In one of his messages on October 30, 1998, Mel Wolfson wanted to learn
about Nowy Sacz.

The first historical mention of Jews in the town was in 1409. (According to
my Gazetteer the town was founded in 1204.) During the 19th century a famous
Rabbi, Chaim Ben Arieh Lejb Halberstam lived there. About 150,000 Jews lived in
the city and nearby towns before WWI. Most of these were carted off to Belzec
and exterminated. There were also about 25,000 people buried in the area,
groups of whom were executed en masse. The synagogue was abandoned. (This
information comes largely >from Joram Kagan, Poland's Jewish Heritage,
(Hippocrene Books, 1992). However, another book, Ruth Gruber "Jewish
Heritage Travel," (John Wiley & Sons,Inc.1994) says that "[t]he main
synagogue, built in 1746, is now an art gallery." I don't know whether the one
in the Kagan book is the same as that in the Gruber book.)

There are two Yizkor (memorial) books concerning Nowy Sacz:

Le-sekher kehilat Tsants [In memory of the Community of Tsants]. Ed.
Ya'ahovi Tefuhah. Jerusalem: Bet ha-sefer ha-tikhon ha-dati la-banot Oylinsh
di Rotshild, (1967/68). In Hebrew.

Sefer Sants [The Book of the Jewish Comunity of Nowy Sacz, Ed. R.
Mahler, New York: Former Residents of Sants in New York, 1970. In Hebrew and
Yiddish.

(Again, according to my old gazetteer, during WWII, when the Germans
occupied it, it was called "Neu Sandez." There was or is a salmon hatchery,
probably on the Dunajee River,and there was or is manufacturing of tools,
chemicals , cement and bricks; flour milling and lumbering. There are nearby
brown coal deposits.)

When YIVO reopens next year, one of the staff might be able to tell Mr.
Wolfson whether there is a Sants Society and maybe even the name of a person
to whom Mr.Wolfson should write for more information, but I am almost certain
other Jewishgenner will write to him and tell him what they know.

Naomi Fatouros


ISAAC or ISAACS #general

Mark and Debbie Burr <ember@...>
 

My husband is a non Jew who spent several years living with Mennonites
and Amish. The name Isaac is not a surname found amongst those people.
The Mennonites and Amish have very good genealogical information, with
their families traced back in many cases to the 14th century. Deborah
Kopstein Burr, Ontario Canada

--


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen ISAAC or ISAACS #general

Mark and Debbie Burr <ember@...>
 

My husband is a non Jew who spent several years living with Mennonites
and Amish. The name Isaac is not a surname found amongst those people.
The Mennonites and Amish have very good genealogical information, with
their families traced back in many cases to the 14th century. Deborah
Kopstein Burr, Ontario Canada

--


Re: "Jciek"= Yitzhak #general

Dick Plotz
 

One fact seems to have been missed in the responses of Judith Romney Wegner
and Alexander Sharon to Jose Gutstein's query. The split between "I" and "J",
which were of course originally the same letter, was completed very recently,
even in English. While the lower-case letters are distinguished in all the
English-language documents I have come across, upper-case "I" and "J" were
used interchangeably up to the early 19th century, at least. This makes
sense, since I can't think offhand of any pairs of words which differ only in
the first letter, one having "I" and the other "J". In such languages as
Polish and German, where the letters still sound similar, one would expect the
dichotomy to have been delayed even longer.

I have participated in some projects to transcribe 19th-century Polish-
language records. This issue arises immediately in such projects: how does
one transcribe a name that may appear as "Josiel" in one place and "Iosiel" in
another, occasionally on the same page? The emerging consensus seems to be to
use "J" at the beginning of a name that begins with a "Y" sound (English
pronunciation) and "I" if the sound is short "I" or "ee". But this is an
arbitrary choice, for the convenience of late-20th century minds used to
standardized spelling. The need to make a choice would not have occurred to
the people who created the records.

Of course "Jciek" is Iciek is Yitzhak.

Dick Plotz
Providence RI
Dick@Plotz.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: "Jciek"= Yitzhak #general

Dick Plotz
 

One fact seems to have been missed in the responses of Judith Romney Wegner
and Alexander Sharon to Jose Gutstein's query. The split between "I" and "J",
which were of course originally the same letter, was completed very recently,
even in English. While the lower-case letters are distinguished in all the
English-language documents I have come across, upper-case "I" and "J" were
used interchangeably up to the early 19th century, at least. This makes
sense, since I can't think offhand of any pairs of words which differ only in
the first letter, one having "I" and the other "J". In such languages as
Polish and German, where the letters still sound similar, one would expect the
dichotomy to have been delayed even longer.

I have participated in some projects to transcribe 19th-century Polish-
language records. This issue arises immediately in such projects: how does
one transcribe a name that may appear as "Josiel" in one place and "Iosiel" in
another, occasionally on the same page? The emerging consensus seems to be to
use "J" at the beginning of a name that begins with a "Y" sound (English
pronunciation) and "I" if the sound is short "I" or "ee". But this is an
arbitrary choice, for the convenience of late-20th century minds used to
standardized spelling. The need to make a choice would not have occurred to
the people who created the records.

Of course "Jciek" is Iciek is Yitzhak.

Dick Plotz
Providence RI
Dick@Plotz.com