On 28 Sep 1998 17:49:29 -0700, in soc.genealogy.jewish
davic@pop.erols.com (David Goldman) wrote:

I have just received some bits of genealogy treasures >from some research
done through RAGAS on the family of my great-grandfather Israel Hirsh
Ziselman. Some of you might remember that he was the key to me becoming
genealogy buff. Five years ago on a quick visit to my family up in Calgary
Canada we took a quick Friday afternoon trip to a local museum which had,
by pure "coincidence" my great-grandfather's religious artifacts on
display. Perhaps of all my research, the material on Israel Hirsh
(1870-1962) is the most detailed so far. In addition, it shows the
priceless value of census data which I guess began in the beginning of the
19th century in the Russian empire. See what you think of my speculations
based on this material....

The census data >from the 19th century in his home district of Borisov
which I guess included Stare-Borisov) yielded the following. Luckily I
already knew his father's name, Yeruchem Ziselman. Well not only did the
census list a Yeruchem aged 10 in 1851, which would have made him 30 years
older than his son Israel Hirsh, but Yerucham's father SHMUEL is also
listed in the census of 1851 and 1834. Shmuel
was born in 1819, thus 51 when his grandson was born in 1870.
An interesting detail is that he was *absent* >from the census of 1854. He
had one wife RIVKA ABRAMOVA in 1851, and a wife ESTER YUDOVA in the census
of 1858 where he was not listed. I don't know how they bothered to record
her husband's name if he wasn't around.....His daughter RASYA was evidently
raised by ESTER, since RASYA is listed listed as his 2 year old daughter in
1851 with RIVKA and 9 in 1858 with ESTER. Note that the censuses refer to
children as the children of the FATHER rather than both parents.

SHMUEL'S son Yeruchem (1841-1928?) was obviously named after Shmuel's
father, who died at a very young age in 1824, when Shmuel was only 6 years
old. YERUCHEM was only 26! Interesting: This Yeruchem's father, MORDECHAI
was listed as "absent" after the census of 1824, at the age of 60, born in
1764.

MORDECHAI ZISELMAN had at least 3 sons: Yeruchem, Faibish, (who ALSO died
at the tender age of 28 in 1820!) and Aron. Mordechai's wife was KUNA, born
in 1774. MORDECHAI was the son of BORUCH.

Question about census: The censuses list additional "relatives". Does this
suggest that these people lived together in the same house? There were two
relative in both the census of 1814 and 1834. Why are their deaths recorded
for the census of 1837 and 1844??!

Regards,
David Goldman, the great-great-great-great-great-grandson of BORUCH
ZISELMAN (1734-1814?)!!

On 28 Sep 1998 17:49:29 -0700, in soc.genealogy.jewish
davic@pop.erols.com (David Goldman) wrote:

I have just received some bits of genealogy treasures >from some research
done through RAGAS on the family of my great-grandfather Israel Hirsh
Ziselman. Some of you might remember that he was the key to me becoming
genealogy buff. Five years ago on a quick visit to my family up in Calgary
Canada we took a quick Friday afternoon trip to a local museum which had,
by pure "coincidence" my great-grandfather's religious artifacts on
display. Perhaps of all my research, the material on Israel Hirsh
(1870-1962) is the most detailed so far. In addition, it shows the
priceless value of census data which I guess began in the beginning of the
19th century in the Russian empire. See what you think of my speculations
based on this material....

The census data >from the 19th century in his home district of Borisov
which I guess included Stare-Borisov) yielded the following. Luckily I
already knew his father's name, Yeruchem Ziselman. Well not only did the
census list a Yeruchem aged 10 in 1851, which would have made him 30 years
older than his son Israel Hirsh, but Yerucham's father SHMUEL is also
listed in the census of 1851 and 1834. Shmuel
was born in 1819, thus 51 when his grandson was born in 1870.
An interesting detail is that he was *absent* >from the census of 1854. He
had one wife RIVKA ABRAMOVA in 1851, and a wife ESTER YUDOVA in the census
of 1858 where he was not listed. I don't know how they bothered to record
her husband's name if he wasn't around.....His daughter RASYA was evidently
raised by ESTER, since RASYA is listed listed as his 2 year old daughter in
1851 with RIVKA and 9 in 1858 with ESTER. Note that the censuses refer to
children as the children of the FATHER rather than both parents.

SHMUEL'S son Yeruchem (1841-1928?) was obviously named after Shmuel's
father, who died at a very young age in 1824, when Shmuel was only 6 years
old. YERUCHEM was only 26! Interesting: This Yeruchem's father, MORDECHAI
was listed as "absent" after the census of 1824, at the age of 60, born in
1764.

MORDECHAI ZISELMAN had at least 3 sons: Yeruchem, Faibish, (who ALSO died
at the tender age of 28 in 1820!) and Aron. Mordechai's wife was KUNA, born
in 1774. MORDECHAI was the son of BORUCH.

Question about census: The censuses list additional "relatives". Does this
suggest that these people lived together in the same house? There were two
relative in both the census of 1814 and 1834. Why are their deaths recorded
for the census of 1837 and 1844??!

Regards,
David Goldman, the great-great-great-great-great-grandson of BORUCH
ZISELMAN (1734-1814?)!!

question: How would I go about finding census records in Minsk? I am new
to this forum and fairly new in my search. While I do have the name of my
ggf and ggm both >from Minsk I am unsure of original surnames and do not
have the names of their parents. Please pardon if my questions seem simple
in light of how experienced most of those who post here are.
Sincerely,

Sharon Ferguson

David Goldman wrote:

question: How would I go about finding census records in Minsk? I am new
to this forum and fairly new in my search. While I do have the name of my
ggf and ggm both >from Minsk I am unsure of original surnames and do not
have the names of their parents. Please pardon if my questions seem simple
in light of how experienced most of those who post here are.
Sincerely,

Sharon Ferguson

David Goldman wrote:

Dear Ed,
As you probably surmised, the date of issuance on the Registry Extract is,
normally, insignificant and irrelevant. The only exception is when it provides
the audit trail for name changes, such as one occuring due to remarriage.
The explanation for a different name for the mother of one of the sisters
(Cecilia) probably lies in a very common error of those times. Usually, the
births were reported by a mid-wife, whose name frequently (and, of course,
mistakenly) was entered as the mother's name. You can very easily determine
now if this was the case---if you need any guidance on how to go about it ,
please contact me privately, through my E-mail (preferrably not until mid-
November).
By the way, I assume that you know that the names Katalin and Katharina
are interchangeable (usually, primarily depending on the nationality of the
Registrar, rather than the names actually given....)
Regards,
Peter A. Gergay
San Francisco, CA

Dear Ed,
As you probably surmised, the date of issuance on the Registry Extract is,
normally, insignificant and irrelevant. The only exception is when it provides
the audit trail for name changes, such as one occuring due to remarriage.
The explanation for a different name for the mother of one of the sisters
(Cecilia) probably lies in a very common error of those times. Usually, the
births were reported by a mid-wife, whose name frequently (and, of course,
mistakenly) was entered as the mother's name. You can very easily determine
now if this was the case---if you need any guidance on how to go about it ,
please contact me privately, through my E-mail (preferrably not until mid-
November).
By the way, I assume that you know that the names Katalin and Katharina
are interchangeable (usually, primarily depending on the nationality of the
Registrar, rather than the names actually given....)
Regards,
Peter A. Gergay
San Francisco, CA

I just glanced again at the research and was surprised that the individual
living with both MORDECHAI and his son SHMUEL ZISELMAN, Aron Abramovitch
Rashkind was listed as 40 years old in 1834 in one document, and 56 years
old in another, both called census record (revision list). Hirsha Slevitch
in one list is described as 18 in 1816, and 25 in 1834!!

Either these were errors of the census taker, or somebody was pulling someone's leg. Can anybody shed some light on this?

David Goldman
davic@erols.com

I just glanced again at the research and was surprised that the individual
living with both MORDECHAI and his son SHMUEL ZISELMAN, Aron Abramovitch
Rashkind was listed as 40 years old in 1834 in one document, and 56 years
old in another, both called census record (revision list). Hirsha Slevitch
in one list is described as 18 in 1816, and 25 in 1834!!

Either these were errors of the census taker, or somebody was pulling someone's leg. Can anybody shed some light on this?

David Goldman
davic@erols.com

On 30 Sep 1998 17:16:40 -0700, in soc.genealogy.jewish
davic@pop.erols.com (David Goldman) wrote:

After perusing the Shtetl finder list, I found so many Shapiro families
originating >from towns in Lithuania, that I am even more convinced that my
ancestors on the Shapiro side who lived on the Russia/Belarus border in
Surazh and who were Lubavitchers, must have originated up north in
Lithuania, with a branch moving down to Russia/Belarus for business
reasons. It was probably my great-great-grandfather or his father before
him. I wonder how many other Shapiros, even >from Lithuania, were also
Lubavitcher chassidim....

David Goldman
davic@erols.com

On 30 Sep 1998 17:16:40 -0700, in soc.genealogy.jewish
davic@pop.erols.com (David Goldman) wrote:

After perusing the Shtetl finder list, I found so many Shapiro families
originating >from towns in Lithuania, that I am even more convinced that my
ancestors on the Shapiro side who lived on the Russia/Belarus border in
Surazh and who were Lubavitchers, must have originated up north in
Lithuania, with a branch moving down to Russia/Belarus for business
reasons. It was probably my great-great-grandfather or his father before
him. I wonder how many other Shapiros, even >from Lithuania, were also
Lubavitcher chassidim....

David Goldman
davic@erols.com

The research shows the names of Aron ABRAMOVITCH RASHKIN, age 56 in 1834
and Hirshe NOKHIMOVITCH SLEVITCH, aged 25 in 1834. Do these names ring a
bell to anyone? Thanks.

David Goldman
mailto:davic@EROLS.COM

The research shows the names of Aron ABRAMOVITCH RASHKIN, age 56 in 1834
and Hirshe NOKHIMOVITCH SLEVITCH, aged 25 in 1834. Do these names ring a
bell to anyone? Thanks.

David Goldman
mailto:davic@EROLS.COM

The research shows that Aron Ziselman, aged 20, was sent to "exile" by
court decision in 1834. Does anyone know what that means? Was it lifelong
exile in Siberia, and for what purpose at that time? Thanks.

David Goldman
mailto:davic@POP.EROLS.COM

The research shows that Aron Ziselman, aged 20, was sent to "exile" by
court decision in 1834. Does anyone know what that means? Was it lifelong
exile in Siberia, and for what purpose at that time? Thanks.

David Goldman
mailto:davic@POP.EROLS.COM

==I recently posted an enquiry about a Cantor Katz >from Nurnberg, Germany, who
was cantor in Newfoundland >from 1938-42 when he left for the USA. I want to
thank all who gave me information--you've been very helpful.

Someone sent me a message about a man--I think his name was Schwartz--in
Jerusalem's Old City. He is around 70 years old, and is considered THE
historian of Nurnberg's Jews. I was very excited and hoped to meet him on my
trip to Jerusalem in mid-October.

==I got the message complete with address and telephone number--but before I
could utilize it, Yom Kippur came and wiped out the file (together with my
sins, I hope). I feel very stupid and want to apologize to the sender Does
anyone know this Mr., Doctor, or Rabbi Schwartz, in the Old City of Jerusalem?
Do you have his address or phone number? He has no e-mail, and I was told to
write him in Hebrew or in German--and I don't have much time left to contact
him.

==I'm interested in any information on the Jews of Nurnberg, and those of
Bamberg and its surrounding villages.

==Please send replies to me at <A HREF="mBernet@aol.com">mBernet@aol.com</A>
with a copy to <A HREF="SheilaTan@aol.com">SheilaTan@aol.com</A>

==Gmar Chatima Tovah to all (May you be sealed for a good year)

Michael Bernet, NY

==I recently posted an enquiry about a Cantor Katz >from Nurnberg, Germany, who
was cantor in Newfoundland >from 1938-42 when he left for the USA. I want to
thank all who gave me information--you've been very helpful.

Someone sent me a message about a man--I think his name was Schwartz--in
Jerusalem's Old City. He is around 70 years old, and is considered THE
historian of Nurnberg's Jews. I was very excited and hoped to meet him on my
trip to Jerusalem in mid-October.

==I got the message complete with address and telephone number--but before I
could utilize it, Yom Kippur came and wiped out the file (together with my
sins, I hope). I feel very stupid and want to apologize to the sender Does
anyone know this Mr., Doctor, or Rabbi Schwartz, in the Old City of Jerusalem?
Do you have his address or phone number? He has no e-mail, and I was told to
write him in Hebrew or in German--and I don't have much time left to contact
him.

==I'm interested in any information on the Jews of Nurnberg, and those of
Bamberg and its surrounding villages.

==Please send replies to me at <A HREF="mBernet@aol.com">mBernet@aol.com</A>
with a copy to <A HREF="SheilaTan@aol.com">SheilaTan@aol.com</A>

==Gmar Chatima Tovah to all (May you be sealed for a good year)

Michael Bernet, NY

Khaver in modern Hebrew means a friend or a member of an organization. But
that has nothing to with its use on a tombstone.

Khaver is an informal title used when referring to a learned person or
religious functionary such as a Shokhet or Khazan, who does not have
rabbinical ordination.

It is in use particularly on tombstones or when calling up such a person to
the Torah or in correspondence.

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
email: fridman@ultinet.co.il
web page: http://www.avotaynu.com/gaonbook.html

In the database there is a "grandfather 2" column. Just what does this mean?
Art

Khaver in modern Hebrew means a friend or a member of an organization. But
that has nothing to with its use on a tombstone.

Khaver is an informal title used when referring to a learned person or
religious functionary such as a Shokhet or Khazan, who does not have
rabbinical ordination.

It is in use particularly on tombstones or when calling up such a person to
the Torah or in correspondence.

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
email: fridman@ultinet.co.il
web page: http://www.avotaynu.com/gaonbook.html

In the database there is a "grandfather 2" column. Just what does this mean?
Art