Date   

TRANSLATION #general

Israel Lenzner <izl@...>
 

I found 2 references to LENTZNER while searching the JEWISH GEN data base
of HAMELITZ. >from the NYC public library I obtained copies of the 2 issues
mentioned. Where can I get these documents translated????TIA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen TRANSLATION #general

Israel Lenzner <izl@...>
 

I found 2 references to LENTZNER while searching the JEWISH GEN data base
of HAMELITZ. >from the NYC public library I obtained copies of the 2 issues
mentioned. Where can I get these documents translated????TIA


*Re: Name transformations #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Some comments to what Touvia wrote

at 12/11/98 - 03:19 -0200, Touvia Goldstein wrote:

1. Is their a logical or linquistic reason that a given name can be
Jetti, Yetti, Jute (u with oomlat), and Etta -- all the same person?
YES, THESE NAMES ARE ACTUALLY THE JEWISH NAME JUDITH OR YEHUDITH THAT
ALSO WAS COMMON TO BE YIDKE. I FACED EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION IN MY
RESEARCH. ETTA MIGHT BE RATHER ESTHER.
Jetti or Jetta is a Latinate derivative of the word denoting the mineral
"jet", in turn deriving >from old French "jaiet".

Jutte or Jute is a German vernacular form for Judith, but became an
independent name in its own right.

Etta is the shorting for Marietta, which is the Italian diminutive for
Maria, which in turn is the Latin equivalent of Myriam.. It has nothing to
do with Esther which is a Biblical name, the Persian translation of
Hadassah ('myrtle').

2. Could Sigmond (or Zsigmond) also be Gische or Sische?
YES, IT COULD BE.
What basis is there for this statement? The three names have completely
different Soundex codes.

3. What is the connection between Feige, Fani, Taube and Tobe?
ALSO POSSIBLE. FEIGE COULD BE "FEIGEL=BIRD" AND TUABE OR TOBE "A
PIDGEON". TOVA COULD ALSO BE THE FEMENINE PARALLEL NAME OF TOUVIA,
THE MASCULINE.
Feige is indeed the pet name in Yiddish for Zipporah (bird in Hebrew). The
only connection I see with Taube (German word for 'dove' *not* pidgeon) is
that *both* are birds. However Taub or Taube as surnames are patronymics of
Jonas which in Hebrew means 'dove'.

4. Is it possible that the surname Abrahamovitz could transform
itself into Szendrovits? Another time it is written Izenowitz!

TAKE IN CONSIDERATION THAT IN THOSE YEARS TRANSCRIPTS WHERE VERBAL AND
THE ONES WHO WROTE THE NAMES IN THE REGISTRATION BOOKS WHERE NOT
ALWAYS WELL TRAINED. IT COUOLD ALSO BE POSSIBLE THAT, AS RABBI
MARMORSTEIN MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS POST, MILITARY REASONS MADE THEM
CHANGE THEIR NAMES.THE CONTEXT OF THE FINDING IS VERY IMPORTANT.
Sorry but this is a misconception which has no factual fundament. An
article was featured just recently at JewishGen in which an expert in
American genealogy stated that "the Ellis Island registration mixups are a
legend, usually invented by the person who changed his/her name for other
reasons". I can forward this article to the group but it is long.

Abramowitz, Szendrowitz and Izenowitz are all patronymics, of *different*
roots (Abraham for the first, and *possibly* Szender and Izer for the
later, but I am not sure)

5. Could Scheindel and Sandl be the same?
YES, BECAUSE OF ALL THE ABOVE,
Scheindel could be related to Schoenteil (== 'nice part') which is the
German translation of Bonaparte, being a surname taken by some Jewish
families in homage of the Emperor who emancipated them. The Soundex codes
for all three names is the same so *maybe* there is a relation.


Re: why there are differences in Hamburg manifests #hungary

Marian Brown <mbrown@...>
 

Carol Skydell wrote:
"Ship passenger manifests were created to meet both business and
legal needs. Shipping companies needed passenger records
primarily for ticketing purposes. But these same companies were
subject to legal requirements imposed by governments of each of
the nations at whose ports the ship would call. Thus a variety
of records could be created in relation to any given voyage of a
commercial passenger ship."
Upon arrival in New York the captain was
required to submit an arrival manifest to the U. S. authorities.
this could account for the differences in handwriting as was
mentioned on this forum. The list contained the information
required under U.S. law. This explains why each manifest for
the same ship differed.

She goes on to describe the process....creation of the manifest
was most often the duty of the ships's purser. When the ship
arrived into a U.S. port, U.S. officials boarded the vessel and
received the manifest >from the ship's officers.
Carol - Thanks for trying to unconfuse us. But -- where can one find
the manifest created by the ship's purser or whomever? I have looked at
the embarkation Hamburg lists?

Marian


Hungary SIG #Hungary *Re: Name transformations #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Some comments to what Touvia wrote

at 12/11/98 - 03:19 -0200, Touvia Goldstein wrote:

1. Is their a logical or linquistic reason that a given name can be
Jetti, Yetti, Jute (u with oomlat), and Etta -- all the same person?
YES, THESE NAMES ARE ACTUALLY THE JEWISH NAME JUDITH OR YEHUDITH THAT
ALSO WAS COMMON TO BE YIDKE. I FACED EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION IN MY
RESEARCH. ETTA MIGHT BE RATHER ESTHER.
Jetti or Jetta is a Latinate derivative of the word denoting the mineral
"jet", in turn deriving >from old French "jaiet".

Jutte or Jute is a German vernacular form for Judith, but became an
independent name in its own right.

Etta is the shorting for Marietta, which is the Italian diminutive for
Maria, which in turn is the Latin equivalent of Myriam.. It has nothing to
do with Esther which is a Biblical name, the Persian translation of
Hadassah ('myrtle').

2. Could Sigmond (or Zsigmond) also be Gische or Sische?
YES, IT COULD BE.
What basis is there for this statement? The three names have completely
different Soundex codes.

3. What is the connection between Feige, Fani, Taube and Tobe?
ALSO POSSIBLE. FEIGE COULD BE "FEIGEL=BIRD" AND TUABE OR TOBE "A
PIDGEON". TOVA COULD ALSO BE THE FEMENINE PARALLEL NAME OF TOUVIA,
THE MASCULINE.
Feige is indeed the pet name in Yiddish for Zipporah (bird in Hebrew). The
only connection I see with Taube (German word for 'dove' *not* pidgeon) is
that *both* are birds. However Taub or Taube as surnames are patronymics of
Jonas which in Hebrew means 'dove'.

4. Is it possible that the surname Abrahamovitz could transform
itself into Szendrovits? Another time it is written Izenowitz!

TAKE IN CONSIDERATION THAT IN THOSE YEARS TRANSCRIPTS WHERE VERBAL AND
THE ONES WHO WROTE THE NAMES IN THE REGISTRATION BOOKS WHERE NOT
ALWAYS WELL TRAINED. IT COUOLD ALSO BE POSSIBLE THAT, AS RABBI
MARMORSTEIN MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS POST, MILITARY REASONS MADE THEM
CHANGE THEIR NAMES.THE CONTEXT OF THE FINDING IS VERY IMPORTANT.
Sorry but this is a misconception which has no factual fundament. An
article was featured just recently at JewishGen in which an expert in
American genealogy stated that "the Ellis Island registration mixups are a
legend, usually invented by the person who changed his/her name for other
reasons". I can forward this article to the group but it is long.

Abramowitz, Szendrowitz and Izenowitz are all patronymics, of *different*
roots (Abraham for the first, and *possibly* Szender and Izer for the
later, but I am not sure)

5. Could Scheindel and Sandl be the same?
YES, BECAUSE OF ALL THE ABOVE,
Scheindel could be related to Schoenteil (== 'nice part') which is the
German translation of Bonaparte, being a surname taken by some Jewish
families in homage of the Emperor who emancipated them. The Soundex codes
for all three names is the same so *maybe* there is a relation.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: why there are differences in Hamburg manifests #hungary

Marian Brown <mbrown@...>
 

Carol Skydell wrote:
"Ship passenger manifests were created to meet both business and
legal needs. Shipping companies needed passenger records
primarily for ticketing purposes. But these same companies were
subject to legal requirements imposed by governments of each of
the nations at whose ports the ship would call. Thus a variety
of records could be created in relation to any given voyage of a
commercial passenger ship."
Upon arrival in New York the captain was
required to submit an arrival manifest to the U. S. authorities.
this could account for the differences in handwriting as was
mentioned on this forum. The list contained the information
required under U.S. law. This explains why each manifest for
the same ship differed.

She goes on to describe the process....creation of the manifest
was most often the duty of the ships's purser. When the ship
arrived into a U.S. port, U.S. officials boarded the vessel and
received the manifest >from the ship's officers.
Carol - Thanks for trying to unconfuse us. But -- where can one find
the manifest created by the ship's purser or whomever? I have looked at
the embarkation Hamburg lists?

Marian


KIRSCH #hungary

Paula Spier <pspier@...>
 

Does anyone have an address for Julie Kirsch, of Toronto? Mail bounces.
I have PROPPER information for her.
Paula Spier


Hungary SIG #Hungary KIRSCH #hungary

Paula Spier <pspier@...>
 

Does anyone have an address for Julie Kirsch, of Toronto? Mail bounces.
I have PROPPER information for her.
Paula Spier


*Re: Name transformations #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

at 11/11/98 - 19:04 -0200, Marian Brown wrote:

1. Is their a logical or linquistic reason that a given name can be
Jetti, Yetti, Jute (u with oomlat), and Etta -- all the same person?
Jetta, Jutte and Etta have 3 different etymologic roots, so they are not
the same name. It doesn't means that inside a family a person couldn't
receive all these pet names.


Hungary SIG #Hungary *Re: Name transformations #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

at 11/11/98 - 19:04 -0200, Marian Brown wrote:

1. Is their a logical or linquistic reason that a given name can be
Jetti, Yetti, Jute (u with oomlat), and Etta -- all the same person?
Jetta, Jutte and Etta have 3 different etymologic roots, so they are not
the same name. It doesn't means that inside a family a person couldn't
receive all these pet names.


marrying sisters #hungary

georges.graner@lpma.u-psud.fr <Georges.Graner@...>
 

Dear H-siggers,

Rabbi Marmorstein asked whether there was a law prohibiting a man
to marry his former wife's sister.

My grand-father was married three times in Hungary, between 1885 and 1898.
First he married a girl, had 2 children and she died.Then he married the young sister of his former wife, had one child, and she died.Then he married my own g-m, had 5 children.

All 8 children were called Graner, with no problem. I do not know what
was the situation with the jewish religion but my g-f was a very religious
man, so that I would be surprised if he had made anything against the
religious law.


Best regards to all of you,

Georges GRANER


Hungary SIG #Hungary marrying sisters #hungary

georges.graner@lpma.u-psud.fr <Georges.Graner@...>
 

Dear H-siggers,

Rabbi Marmorstein asked whether there was a law prohibiting a man
to marry his former wife's sister.

My grand-father was married three times in Hungary, between 1885 and 1898.
First he married a girl, had 2 children and she died.Then he married the young sister of his former wife, had one child, and she died.Then he married my own g-m, had 5 children.

All 8 children were called Graner, with no problem. I do not know what
was the situation with the jewish religion but my g-f was a very religious
man, so that I would be surprised if he had made anything against the
religious law.


Best regards to all of you,

Georges GRANER


Wachstein: Preszburg 1756 #hungary

Georg Gaugusch <e9526666@...>
 

Dear Rabbi Marmorstein,=20

please note that there are several versions of Wachstein's article about
the jews in Preszburg, the last (and best) one is in Hugo Gold's book about
the Judengemeinde in Preszburg. All corrections he knew you'll find in his
Randbemerkungen. You'll find it in 11th volume of the Quellen und
Forschungen zur Geschichte der Juden in Deutsch-=D6sterreich, the same
volume includes his work about the jewish enterprises in the Viennese
Merkantilgericht (>from 1780 to 1830). If you need excerpts >from J=FCdisches
Archiv (1927-1929), Archiv f. jued. Familienforschung, Zeitschrift zur
jued. Familienforschung (Czellitzer), Zeitschrift zur Geschichte der Juden
in der Tschechoslowakei or the Excerpts by Hanns Jaeger-Sunstenau, who did
the 6th volume of the Schluessel just write to me. Copies are no problem.
Hanns Jaeger-Sunstenau, who is still alive, but very old, did a very famous
dissertation (in 1950) about nobilitated jewish families in Austria. He
used a lot of literature.

Best wishes >from Vienna to New York

Georg Gaugusch, Vienna


Hungary SIG #Hungary Wachstein: Preszburg 1756 #hungary

Georg Gaugusch <e9526666@...>
 

Dear Rabbi Marmorstein,=20

please note that there are several versions of Wachstein's article about
the jews in Preszburg, the last (and best) one is in Hugo Gold's book about
the Judengemeinde in Preszburg. All corrections he knew you'll find in his
Randbemerkungen. You'll find it in 11th volume of the Quellen und
Forschungen zur Geschichte der Juden in Deutsch-=D6sterreich, the same
volume includes his work about the jewish enterprises in the Viennese
Merkantilgericht (>from 1780 to 1830). If you need excerpts >from J=FCdisches
Archiv (1927-1929), Archiv f. jued. Familienforschung, Zeitschrift zur
jued. Familienforschung (Czellitzer), Zeitschrift zur Geschichte der Juden
in der Tschechoslowakei or the Excerpts by Hanns Jaeger-Sunstenau, who did
the 6th volume of the Schluessel just write to me. Copies are no problem.
Hanns Jaeger-Sunstenau, who is still alive, but very old, did a very famous
dissertation (in 1950) about nobilitated jewish families in Austria. He
used a lot of literature.

Best wishes >from Vienna to New York

Georg Gaugusch, Vienna


Re: Name transformations #hungary

Touvia Goldstein <touviagoldstein@...>
 

DEAR MARION AND ALL,

I WILL REPLY INTO YOUR TEXT WITH CAPITAL LETTERS.

TOUVIA GOLDSTEIN


Dear All,

Following are my questions:

1. Is their a logical or linquistic reason that a given name can be
Jetti, Yetti, Jute (u with oomlat), and Etta -- all the same person?
YES, THESE NAMES ARE ACTUALLY THE JEWISH NAME JUDITH OR YEHUDITH THAT
ALSO WAS COMMON TO BE YIDKE. I FACED EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION IN MY
RESEARCH. ETTA MIGHT BE RATHER ESTHER.


2. Could Sigmond (or Zsigmond) also be Gische or Sische?
YES, IT COULD BE. NOT ALWAYS THERE IS A DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE
JEWISH NAME AND THE TRANSLATED NAME INTO A GENTILE LANGUAGE.THERE FORE
THE CONTAXT OF THE DISCOVERY IS VERY IMPORTANT.

3. What is the connection between Feige, Fani, Taube and Tobe?
ALSO POSSIBLE. FEIGE COULD BE "FEIGEL=BIRD" AND TUABE OR TOBE "A
PIDGEON". TOVA COULD ALSO BE THE FEMENINE PARALLEL NAME OF TOUVIA,
THE MASCULINE.

4. Is it possible that the surname Abrahamovitz could transform
itself into Szendrovits? Another time it is written Izenowitz!

TAKE IN CONSIDERATION THAT IN THOSE YEARS TRANSCRIPTS WHERE VERBAL AND
THE ONES WHO WROTE THE NAMES IN THE REGISTRATION BOOKS WHERE NOT
ALWAYS WELL TRAINED. IT COUOLD ALSO BE POSSIBLE THAT, AS RABBI
MARMORSTEIN MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS POST, MILITARY REASONS MADE THEM
CHANGE THEIR NAMES.THE CONTEXT OF THE FINDING IS VERY IMPORTANT.

5. Could Scheindel and Sandl be the same?
YES, BECAUSE OF ALL THE ABOVE, IN MY FAMILY TREE I MENTIONED TO,
PLEASE, NOT MIND TO MUCH THE SPELLINGS. THIS SAME PROBLEM WE HAVE WHEN
INMIGRANTS PRESENTED THEMSELVES ON ARRIVAL AT ELLIS ISLAND AND THE
CLERK WROTE THEIR NAMES AS "HE HEARD IT MENTIONED" AND DID NOT WORRY
TO CONFIRM IT EXACTLY.SOMETIMES HE EVEN CHANGED THEM BECAUSE "IT WAS
EASIER TO WRITE IT DOWN".

IN THE COPIES OF DOCUMENTS YOU WHERE GENEROUS TO SEND TO ME, WE FIND
THE FAMILY NAME HUBSCHMAN WRITTEN HIPTSCHMAN OR SIMILAR. HUBSCH (WITH
TO DOTS ON TOP OF THE "U") IN GERMAN IS NICE AND IT IS PRONNOUNCED "H"
+ A MIXED "I" "U" PRONOUNCIATION. SO YOU CAN FIND IT STARTING WITH
HUBSCH...HIBSCH...HUEBSH...HUBS...HIPTSSH.., ETC.

AT FIRST GLANCE OF THE DOCUMENTS, I TEND TO THINK THAT, YOUR CIRC
HUPTCHMAN FAMILY AND MY BODRUZAL HUBSCHMAN FAMILY ARE CONNECTED. WE
HAVE TO FIND HOW.TAKE IN CONSIDERATION THAT THE REGISTRATION TOOK
PLACE IN DIFFERENT VILLAGES WHERE THE EXAT PRONOUNCIATION MGHT HAVE
BEEN ALSO SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.
BUT SOME FIRST NAMES ARE THE SAME AND WE KNOW THAT THIS IS A VERY GOOD
WAY TO FIND THE CONNECTION OF BRANCHES THAT NAMED HTEIR DECENDENTS IN
REMEMBRANCE OF A COMMON ANCESTOR.

THE SAME OR SIMILAR SITUATION WE HAVE WITH THE NAME
SCHOENFELD..."SHOEN" IN GERMAN IS BEAUTIFUL...WE CAN FIND IT AS
SHONFELD, SCHENFELD...CHONFELD....ETC.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Name transformations #hungary

Touvia Goldstein <touviagoldstein@...>
 

DEAR MARION AND ALL,

I WILL REPLY INTO YOUR TEXT WITH CAPITAL LETTERS.

TOUVIA GOLDSTEIN


Dear All,

Following are my questions:

1. Is their a logical or linquistic reason that a given name can be
Jetti, Yetti, Jute (u with oomlat), and Etta -- all the same person?
YES, THESE NAMES ARE ACTUALLY THE JEWISH NAME JUDITH OR YEHUDITH THAT
ALSO WAS COMMON TO BE YIDKE. I FACED EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION IN MY
RESEARCH. ETTA MIGHT BE RATHER ESTHER.


2. Could Sigmond (or Zsigmond) also be Gische or Sische?
YES, IT COULD BE. NOT ALWAYS THERE IS A DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE
JEWISH NAME AND THE TRANSLATED NAME INTO A GENTILE LANGUAGE.THERE FORE
THE CONTAXT OF THE DISCOVERY IS VERY IMPORTANT.

3. What is the connection between Feige, Fani, Taube and Tobe?
ALSO POSSIBLE. FEIGE COULD BE "FEIGEL=BIRD" AND TUABE OR TOBE "A
PIDGEON". TOVA COULD ALSO BE THE FEMENINE PARALLEL NAME OF TOUVIA,
THE MASCULINE.

4. Is it possible that the surname Abrahamovitz could transform
itself into Szendrovits? Another time it is written Izenowitz!

TAKE IN CONSIDERATION THAT IN THOSE YEARS TRANSCRIPTS WHERE VERBAL AND
THE ONES WHO WROTE THE NAMES IN THE REGISTRATION BOOKS WHERE NOT
ALWAYS WELL TRAINED. IT COUOLD ALSO BE POSSIBLE THAT, AS RABBI
MARMORSTEIN MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS POST, MILITARY REASONS MADE THEM
CHANGE THEIR NAMES.THE CONTEXT OF THE FINDING IS VERY IMPORTANT.

5. Could Scheindel and Sandl be the same?
YES, BECAUSE OF ALL THE ABOVE, IN MY FAMILY TREE I MENTIONED TO,
PLEASE, NOT MIND TO MUCH THE SPELLINGS. THIS SAME PROBLEM WE HAVE WHEN
INMIGRANTS PRESENTED THEMSELVES ON ARRIVAL AT ELLIS ISLAND AND THE
CLERK WROTE THEIR NAMES AS "HE HEARD IT MENTIONED" AND DID NOT WORRY
TO CONFIRM IT EXACTLY.SOMETIMES HE EVEN CHANGED THEM BECAUSE "IT WAS
EASIER TO WRITE IT DOWN".

IN THE COPIES OF DOCUMENTS YOU WHERE GENEROUS TO SEND TO ME, WE FIND
THE FAMILY NAME HUBSCHMAN WRITTEN HIPTSCHMAN OR SIMILAR. HUBSCH (WITH
TO DOTS ON TOP OF THE "U") IN GERMAN IS NICE AND IT IS PRONNOUNCED "H"
+ A MIXED "I" "U" PRONOUNCIATION. SO YOU CAN FIND IT STARTING WITH
HUBSCH...HIBSCH...HUEBSH...HUBS...HIPTSSH.., ETC.

AT FIRST GLANCE OF THE DOCUMENTS, I TEND TO THINK THAT, YOUR CIRC
HUPTCHMAN FAMILY AND MY BODRUZAL HUBSCHMAN FAMILY ARE CONNECTED. WE
HAVE TO FIND HOW.TAKE IN CONSIDERATION THAT THE REGISTRATION TOOK
PLACE IN DIFFERENT VILLAGES WHERE THE EXAT PRONOUNCIATION MGHT HAVE
BEEN ALSO SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.
BUT SOME FIRST NAMES ARE THE SAME AND WE KNOW THAT THIS IS A VERY GOOD
WAY TO FIND THE CONNECTION OF BRANCHES THAT NAMED HTEIR DECENDENTS IN
REMEMBRANCE OF A COMMON ANCESTOR.

THE SAME OR SIMILAR SITUATION WE HAVE WITH THE NAME
SCHOENFELD..."SHOEN" IN GERMAN IS BEAUTIFUL...WE CAN FIND IT AS
SHONFELD, SCHENFELD...CHONFELD....ETC.


Searching: GEBOTT #general

Wildpom@...
 

Has anyone heard of this name before? It was the name of an ancestor of
mine >from a shtetl called PODUSOW in Eastern Galicia. GEBOTT is a very
uncommon name that I am trying to trace. Would also be interested in
hearing >from anyone whose relatives came >from Podusow.

Michele V. Pomerantz
Secaucus, NJ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Searching: GEBOTT #general

Wildpom@...
 

Has anyone heard of this name before? It was the name of an ancestor of
mine >from a shtetl called PODUSOW in Eastern Galicia. GEBOTT is a very
uncommon name that I am trying to trace. Would also be interested in
hearing >from anyone whose relatives came >from Podusow.

Michele V. Pomerantz
Secaucus, NJ


Searching: Morris KAUFMAN family #general

Seflaum@...
 

I am searching for the family of Morris KAUFMAN who married into our
GOLDBERG family, originally >from Burdujeni, Romania, that emigrated as a
family to the USA around 1900 and settled in Pittsburgh, PA. See the
family tree below. If you know of a connection, please contact me.

Regards,
Shirley Flaum
Seflaum@aol.com
Houston, Texas

MODERATOR NOTE: Family tree deleted, as it appeared in an earlier post.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Searching: Morris KAUFMAN family #general

Seflaum@...
 

I am searching for the family of Morris KAUFMAN who married into our
GOLDBERG family, originally >from Burdujeni, Romania, that emigrated as a
family to the USA around 1900 and settled in Pittsburgh, PA. See the
family tree below. If you know of a connection, please contact me.

Regards,
Shirley Flaum
Seflaum@aol.com
Houston, Texas

MODERATOR NOTE: Family tree deleted, as it appeared in an earlier post.