On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:34:54, levinson@carroll.com (Jon and
Peggy Levinson) 'llowed:

Could anyone tell me the significance of the following two words on a
tombstone:

In order (R to L): hay-alepf-shin-hay, then hay-chet-shin-vov-bet-hay

The Esteemed Wife (Woman)
-------------
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel

(Remove "takeout" >from domain; change "sheol" to "stan". Sorry)

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, ISMACH, ROKITA: Lomza Gubernia,
Poland
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Romania

On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:34:54, levinson@carroll.com (Jon and
Peggy Levinson) 'llowed:

Could anyone tell me the significance of the following two words on a
tombstone:

In order (R to L): hay-alepf-shin-hay, then hay-chet-shin-vov-bet-hay

The Esteemed Wife (Woman)
-------------
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel

(Remove "takeout" >from domain; change "sheol" to "stan". Sorry)

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, ISMACH, ROKITA: Lomza Gubernia,
Poland
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Romania

I presently use Quinsept's MSDOS based 'Family Roots', and would like to
update to a WIN95/98 software. The application should import Family
Roots data files, and not GEDCOM. Which software packages seem to be the
most popular and the phone number for the manufacturer.

Thanks

MODERATOR NOTE: Respond privately please

I presently use Quinsept's MSDOS based 'Family Roots', and would like to
update to a WIN95/98 software. The application should import Family
Roots data files, and not GEDCOM. Which software packages seem to be the
most popular and the phone number for the manufacturer.

Thanks

MODERATOR NOTE: Respond privately please

At the risk of sounding inflamatory and after many, many, many postings
on this subject I would like to add a few comments to the discussion
about Hebrew names, naming patterns and issues of translation,
transliteration and usage. It seems to me that the vast majority of
people seeking Hebrew "equivalents" for Anglicised names are simply
searching for the actual names given to their ancestors - and are not
necessarily interested in either the etymological or philological
development of a sepcific name. When discussing European Jewry, if not
the overwhelming majority of world Jewry, in the broader non-Jewish
cultural context, we should keep in mind that our common cultural
history includes at least one major source - the Hebrew Bible. Moishe

from Dribkelevke, Russia may have been known as "Moishele" to his

mother, recorded as "Moisey" in official Russian documents, entered on a
passenger list as "Movshe" in the port of Libau en route to America, and
naturalized in the District court on Main Street America as "Maurice".
When someone asks in this forum for the Hebrew equivalent of
"Maurice" (the question may be phrased as looking for the translation,
transliteration, equivalent or whatever), it seems to me that this
person is primarily interested in getting to the name "Moshe" and not
interested in the etymological megillah tracing the evolution of the
Hebrew original name to the name adopted in America. Although such
information is indeed interesting (to me, at least), the sometimes
lengthy responses in this forum to such questions seem to demonstrate
more about the respondent's erudition tthan about the original question
posed by a fellow JewishGenner.
I think it important to note that someone with a question concerning
Hebrew names (or any other subject for that matter), should check the
Discussion Group Archives (as routine) to read what has already been
written on the subject. Secondly, it seems to me that one should always
bear in mind the cultural context that influenced the choice of a
particular name - as indeed some English names, albeit with Biblical
(hence Hebrew) origins are considered by a certain group as sounding too
"non-Jewish". Thirdly, I believe one should begin with the premise that
all Anglicized names are arbitrary in relation to the Hebrew name given
to the individual at birth, even names that appear to be direct
equivalents for a Hebrew name. At one time, in Poland, Russia and
Romania there were many "Moisheles" running around, and today there are
many "Moshes" in Israel (where Hebrew is the language of usage) and
"Moisheles" in places like Borough Park and Bnai Brak (where Yiddish
still prevails) - but in suburban America you will probably find more
Jewish males named "Michael", "Max" and "Mark" who were given the Hebrew
name "Moshe" after some ancestor bearing that name, even though
"Michael" and "Mark" are Anglicized equivalents of Hebrew names.
To unwravel the mystery of a relative's Hebrew name, first check all
available sources which might have their Hebrew name recorded (such as
circumcission and marriage records or tombstone epitaphs), ask relatives
if anyone >from an earlier generation ever addressed that person by their
"Jewish" name, look for re-occurring Hebrew names in the family lines,
consult the many books written about Hebrew names and naming patterns
(which will give you information and clues to help track down an elusive
name) and THEN, when all else fails, post your problem on this public
forum. The reasons why my Uncle Samuel (a perfectly acceptible Hebrew
name) was called "Samuel" in America and named "Yedidiya" in Bialystok
will more than likely have no bearing whatsoever on your Uncle Sam's
Hebrew name - but someone out there in JewishGen land may be able to add
some insightful information. Even names which appear to be obvious
equivalents of Hebrew names may simply be an arbitrary name chosen by
your ancestor and the mere existence of exact equivalents does not in
any way confirm the relationship between the Hebrew and secular names
used by an individual.


David Snyder,
Tel Aviv

At the risk of sounding inflamatory and after many, many, many postings
on this subject I would like to add a few comments to the discussion
about Hebrew names, naming patterns and issues of translation,
transliteration and usage. It seems to me that the vast majority of
people seeking Hebrew "equivalents" for Anglicised names are simply
searching for the actual names given to their ancestors - and are not
necessarily interested in either the etymological or philological
development of a sepcific name. When discussing European Jewry, if not
the overwhelming majority of world Jewry, in the broader non-Jewish
cultural context, we should keep in mind that our common cultural
history includes at least one major source - the Hebrew Bible. Moishe

from Dribkelevke, Russia may have been known as "Moishele" to his

mother, recorded as "Moisey" in official Russian documents, entered on a
passenger list as "Movshe" in the port of Libau en route to America, and
naturalized in the District court on Main Street America as "Maurice".
When someone asks in this forum for the Hebrew equivalent of
"Maurice" (the question may be phrased as looking for the translation,
transliteration, equivalent or whatever), it seems to me that this
person is primarily interested in getting to the name "Moshe" and not
interested in the etymological megillah tracing the evolution of the
Hebrew original name to the name adopted in America. Although such
information is indeed interesting (to me, at least), the sometimes
lengthy responses in this forum to such questions seem to demonstrate
more about the respondent's erudition tthan about the original question
posed by a fellow JewishGenner.
I think it important to note that someone with a question concerning
Hebrew names (or any other subject for that matter), should check the
Discussion Group Archives (as routine) to read what has already been
written on the subject. Secondly, it seems to me that one should always
bear in mind the cultural context that influenced the choice of a
particular name - as indeed some English names, albeit with Biblical
(hence Hebrew) origins are considered by a certain group as sounding too
"non-Jewish". Thirdly, I believe one should begin with the premise that
all Anglicized names are arbitrary in relation to the Hebrew name given
to the individual at birth, even names that appear to be direct
equivalents for a Hebrew name. At one time, in Poland, Russia and
Romania there were many "Moisheles" running around, and today there are
many "Moshes" in Israel (where Hebrew is the language of usage) and
"Moisheles" in places like Borough Park and Bnai Brak (where Yiddish
still prevails) - but in suburban America you will probably find more
Jewish males named "Michael", "Max" and "Mark" who were given the Hebrew
name "Moshe" after some ancestor bearing that name, even though
"Michael" and "Mark" are Anglicized equivalents of Hebrew names.
To unwravel the mystery of a relative's Hebrew name, first check all
available sources which might have their Hebrew name recorded (such as
circumcission and marriage records or tombstone epitaphs), ask relatives
if anyone >from an earlier generation ever addressed that person by their
"Jewish" name, look for re-occurring Hebrew names in the family lines,
consult the many books written about Hebrew names and naming patterns
(which will give you information and clues to help track down an elusive
name) and THEN, when all else fails, post your problem on this public
forum. The reasons why my Uncle Samuel (a perfectly acceptible Hebrew
name) was called "Samuel" in America and named "Yedidiya" in Bialystok
will more than likely have no bearing whatsoever on your Uncle Sam's
Hebrew name - but someone out there in JewishGen land may be able to add
some insightful information. Even names which appear to be obvious
equivalents of Hebrew names may simply be an arbitrary name chosen by
your ancestor and the mere existence of exact equivalents does not in
any way confirm the relationship between the Hebrew and secular names
used by an individual.


David Snyder,
Tel Aviv

armata@vms.cis.pitt.edu wrote:

Does anyone know of a town which might have been
pronounced like "Grundy"?
[That is the way is written on the Naturalization papers
1905 - 1915] They renounce the Czar although present
day members of this family always believed the family came

from Poland. That narrows the geography but there are still

many possibilites to those unfamiliar with the pronounciation.
Lois Sernoff [Phila., PA, US] <JGLois@aol.com>

The "un" in "Grundy" might represent the Polish nasal "a" vowel. Grady
(with a hook under the "a", showing it's nasal), is pronounced in literary
Polish close to "Grondy", and in dialects can be pronounced "Grundy".

There are several Grady in former Russian Poland: near Plock, near
Ostrow Mazowiecki, near Suwalki, and near Lublin, there may be others too.

Joe Armata
armata@vms.cis.pitt.edu

Mr Joe Armata is a very knowlegeable in Poland's geography and have
assisted many JewishGeners in the past. And he is also correct, there
are actually eighteen places called Grady (pron. Grohn dyh)in today's
Poland.

I thought that perhaps "Grundy" in question could be also confused with
"Grodno". These speculation is based on fact that usually larger nearby
town, rather than tiny shtetls were often picked up as birthplace on the
documents.

On the other hand, it is not clear if naturalization papers make
reference to the place of birth or rather to the place were
naturalization papers were issued. And Grodno used to be a large
administrative centre of the Russian Empire's Jewish Pale.

Again, just an educated guess.

Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Alberta

armata@vms.cis.pitt.edu wrote:

Does anyone know of a town which might have been
pronounced like "Grundy"?
[That is the way is written on the Naturalization papers
1905 - 1915] They renounce the Czar although present
day members of this family always believed the family came

from Poland. That narrows the geography but there are still

many possibilites to those unfamiliar with the pronounciation.
Lois Sernoff [Phila., PA, US] <JGLois@aol.com>

The "un" in "Grundy" might represent the Polish nasal "a" vowel. Grady
(with a hook under the "a", showing it's nasal), is pronounced in literary
Polish close to "Grondy", and in dialects can be pronounced "Grundy".

There are several Grady in former Russian Poland: near Plock, near
Ostrow Mazowiecki, near Suwalki, and near Lublin, there may be others too.

Joe Armata
armata@vms.cis.pitt.edu

Mr Joe Armata is a very knowlegeable in Poland's geography and have
assisted many JewishGeners in the past. And he is also correct, there
are actually eighteen places called Grady (pron. Grohn dyh)in today's
Poland.

I thought that perhaps "Grundy" in question could be also confused with
"Grodno". These speculation is based on fact that usually larger nearby
town, rather than tiny shtetls were often picked up as birthplace on the
documents.

On the other hand, it is not clear if naturalization papers make
reference to the place of birth or rather to the place were
naturalization papers were issued. And Grodno used to be a large
administrative centre of the Russian Empire's Jewish Pale.

Again, just an educated guess.

Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Alberta

Searching Nathanson Vilnius Lithuania 1895-1897
Entin Rezhitzka Russia Abt 1915
Marcus Bialystok Poland 1890-1893
Stabinsky Bialystok Poland About 1890
Rabinowitz Korestishen Russia 1909
Breitman Ilincz Russia 1904

Can anyone with Familytreemaker 5.0 tell me if they just sent their merged
tree to Gedcom easily?
Thanks
Fran in So. Ca
e-mail fentin2385@aol.com

Searching Nathanson Vilnius Lithuania 1895-1897
Entin Rezhitzka Russia Abt 1915
Marcus Bialystok Poland 1890-1893
Stabinsky Bialystok Poland About 1890
Rabinowitz Korestishen Russia 1909
Breitman Ilincz Russia 1904

Can anyone with Familytreemaker 5.0 tell me if they just sent their merged
tree to Gedcom easily?
Thanks
Fran in So. Ca
e-mail fentin2385@aol.com

In a message dated 98-09-06 16:41:33 EDT, BSHRINK@AOL.COM writes:

<< Could someone help me with this dilemma? My aunt 's gravestone
has Sarah Ben Ha Levi,
==That would be Sarah son of the Levite. A misreading for Sarah Bat?
If not, perhaps the family name was Benhalevi or, in Germanic languages, Levinson rendered back into Hebrew.

If your aunt was your father's sister and she was the daughter of
a Levi,then, if they had the smae father, your father would have been
a Levi, not the son of a Levi. (a woman cannot formally be a Levi,
which goes by masculine descent)

<<and my father always told us he was a Levite...can we assume that my
father should have Bar Ha Levi on his stone?? >>
==I'm a Levite myself, and have never heard of this phrase--which,
I've learned here--by no means excludes its existence. Abraham the
Levite would be called Avraham ha-Levi on the tombstone. If the
family name was obviously that of a Levi (e.g. Levine, Levinsohn, Loewenson,) that tag is not required. It is customary to denote
the tombstone of a levi with a water pitcher, since his sole
remaining synagogal function is to wash the hands of the cohanim
before they recite the Threefold Blessing. With that, the addition
of ha-Levi might be considered un-necessarry.

Michael Bernet
*****************************

In a message dated 98-09-06 16:41:33 EDT, BSHRINK@AOL.COM writes:

<< Could someone help me with this dilemma? My aunt 's gravestone
has Sarah Ben Ha Levi,
==That would be Sarah son of the Levite. A misreading for Sarah Bat?
If not, perhaps the family name was Benhalevi or, in Germanic languages, Levinson rendered back into Hebrew.

If your aunt was your father's sister and she was the daughter of
a Levi,then, if they had the smae father, your father would have been
a Levi, not the son of a Levi. (a woman cannot formally be a Levi,
which goes by masculine descent)

<<and my father always told us he was a Levite...can we assume that my
father should have Bar Ha Levi on his stone?? >>
==I'm a Levite myself, and have never heard of this phrase--which,
I've learned here--by no means excludes its existence. Abraham the
Levite would be called Avraham ha-Levi on the tombstone. If the
family name was obviously that of a Levi (e.g. Levine, Levinsohn, Loewenson,) that tag is not required. It is customary to denote
the tombstone of a levi with a water pitcher, since his sole
remaining synagogal function is to wash the hands of the cohanim
before they recite the Threefold Blessing. With that, the addition
of ha-Levi might be considered un-necessarry.

Michael Bernet
*****************************

I am trying to find my family name in David Gorodok as it was the last place I
actually have some evidence they lived there. My grandfather's father was
David Chaim Mogelever (spelling keeps changing) and family stories say he was
the son of Rabbi Samuel Mohilewer. No evidence can be found of this fact (by
me a definite novice) My grandfather Dov Ber (Barnett) who was born in 1873
should have known who his grandfather was even if no one of my generation can
find any facts. The problem is that Rabbi Samuel was very prominent and any
official information published on him does not have my great grandfather David
Chaim listed as a son. Very confusing. I really would like to find the link
because Rabbi Sam has a family tree of ancestors that would make my search for
a family tree much easier. But first I have to find David Chaim born around
1850 something. ALSO there are lots of Molivers in the US who claim Rabbi
Samuel as a great great grandfather and cannot prove it either. Could he have
been hiding an entire family. I do know one thing David Chaim was married
twice and my grandfathers half sister did marry into the Grenadier family of
David Gorodok. Quite by accident I found the Grenadiers of NY and they are
related and now part of our family. One fortunate find.
TIA
Bonnie

Bonnie MOGELEVER Pollack

Kirzhner (with variants Kirshner etc.) >from which your Kirsner stems, means
"furrier" and "hat maker" in Yiddish. It probably referred to one who made
fur hats. Otherwise, a "hat maker" is "hitl-makher."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter B. Golden
Professor of History
Rutgers University
Dept. of History
Conklin Hall
175 University Avenue
Newark, NJ 07102
tel. (973) 353-5410 (dept.),(973)353-1054 (office)
fax : (973) 353-1193
pgolden@andromeda.rutgers.edu

I am trying to find my family name in David Gorodok as it was the last place I
actually have some evidence they lived there. My grandfather's father was
David Chaim Mogelever (spelling keeps changing) and family stories say he was
the son of Rabbi Samuel Mohilewer. No evidence can be found of this fact (by
me a definite novice) My grandfather Dov Ber (Barnett) who was born in 1873
should have known who his grandfather was even if no one of my generation can
find any facts. The problem is that Rabbi Samuel was very prominent and any
official information published on him does not have my great grandfather David
Chaim listed as a son. Very confusing. I really would like to find the link
because Rabbi Sam has a family tree of ancestors that would make my search for
a family tree much easier. But first I have to find David Chaim born around
1850 something. ALSO there are lots of Molivers in the US who claim Rabbi
Samuel as a great great grandfather and cannot prove it either. Could he have
been hiding an entire family. I do know one thing David Chaim was married
twice and my grandfathers half sister did marry into the Grenadier family of
David Gorodok. Quite by accident I found the Grenadiers of NY and they are
related and now part of our family. One fortunate find.
TIA
Bonnie

Bonnie MOGELEVER Pollack

Kirzhner (with variants Kirshner etc.) >from which your Kirsner stems, means
"furrier" and "hat maker" in Yiddish. It probably referred to one who made
fur hats. Otherwise, a "hat maker" is "hitl-makher."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter B. Golden
Professor of History
Rutgers University
Dept. of History
Conklin Hall
175 University Avenue
Newark, NJ 07102
tel. (973) 353-5410 (dept.),(973)353-1054 (office)
fax : (973) 353-1193
pgolden@andromeda.rutgers.edu

In a message dated 98-09-06 16:33:14 EDT, levinson@carroll.com writes:

<< Could anyone tell me the significance of the following two words on a
tombstone:

In order (R to L): hay-alepf-shin-hay, then hay-chet-shin-vov-bet-hay >>

==Ha'isha hechashuva: the "important" woman. An honorific epc for someone in
high community shanding. In males it's usually just "Hechashuv Yaakov ben
Yitzhak Avrahami" (i.e. it does no need qualification as a male. In Yiddish
often "Der Choschuver" reb Yaacov etc.

In Yiddish newspapers or books, you'll often see the editor or the readers
referred to as Choschuver/ven.

Michael Bernet
*****************************
seeking:

BERNET, BERNAT, BAERNET etc >from Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg, (Bavaria)
KONIGSHOFER: Welbhausen, Konigshofen, Furth (S. Germany)
ALTMANN: Kattowitz, Breslau, Poznan, Beuthen--Upper Silesia/Poland
WOLF, Sali & Rachel, Rotterdam, murdered by Dr. Petiot, Paris ca 1942
WEIL[L], Albert, Fr. hon. consul in Nurnberg; returned to France 1936/7.

In a message dated 98-09-06 16:33:14 EDT, levinson@carroll.com writes:

<< Could anyone tell me the significance of the following two words on a
tombstone:

In order (R to L): hay-alepf-shin-hay, then hay-chet-shin-vov-bet-hay >>

==Ha'isha hechashuva: the "important" woman. An honorific epc for someone in
high community shanding. In males it's usually just "Hechashuv Yaakov ben
Yitzhak Avrahami" (i.e. it does no need qualification as a male. In Yiddish
often "Der Choschuver" reb Yaacov etc.

In Yiddish newspapers or books, you'll often see the editor or the readers
referred to as Choschuver/ven.

Michael Bernet
*****************************
seeking:

BERNET, BERNAT, BAERNET etc >from Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg, (Bavaria)
KONIGSHOFER: Welbhausen, Konigshofen, Furth (S. Germany)
ALTMANN: Kattowitz, Breslau, Poznan, Beuthen--Upper Silesia/Poland
WOLF, Sali & Rachel, Rotterdam, murdered by Dr. Petiot, Paris ca 1942
WEIL[L], Albert, Fr. hon. consul in Nurnberg; returned to France 1936/7.

The following records have been added to the JRI-Poland database
for the town of Czyzewo, Lomza, Poland.

Thank you to those who are assisting with this effort.

CZYZEWO LO BI B 1827-31, 34-37
M 1826-31, 34-37
D 1826-31, 34-37

Gary Palgon
Shtetl Co-op Coordinator

I have discovered that my gggm, Sara Lea GELTZER, the daughter of the
head of the hevra kadisha, performed in musical comedies - presumably in
Yiddish - in Iasi, Rumania.
Anyone have any ideas where I can get any information on her in this
field?

Shalom
David Gordon