Date   

Re: * Being a Jew (was Re: Center for Jewish History) #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

Dear all
About beeing a Hungarian Jew, as far as I know, all my ancestors lived in the part, which is Hungary today. But for similar reason as Tom Venetianer told, I have difficulty to feel myself as a patriot or a Hungarian Jew, but I am of Hungarian and Jewish origin. There seems to be some different feeling between those whose ancestors emigrated in an earlier time
and were raised in a Hungarian Jewish tradition, and the ones who spent WWII in the country and emigrated later or may be the ones who still live in Hungary.

There was some antisemitism in the country already in the 20ies there were some attrocities against the jewish population ("feherterror"[mod: means White Terror- refer to the reaction against the short lived Socialist takeover by Bela Kun, a Hungarian Jew] against the bolshevik, but unproportianally against Jews too). after WWI the Hungarian goverment was the first to exploit the "jewish question" Teleki 1920-21 & 1939-41 and promulage antijewish laws (Randolph Braham)
In the 30ies under minister and president Daranyi and Imredy the antijewish laws were intensified with the 2nd anti Jewish legislation ind Dec. 1938 by ministers Teleki & Tasnadi Nagy,and then the 3rd antijewish laws under Bardossy Aug. 1941.

In the murder at Kamanec- Podolsk of several thousand expelled (18,000) Jews who could not prove Hungarian citizenship for at least 2 generation,s Hungary at least was partly to blame, as well for the attrocities agaionst the Jews in Delvidek/ Ujvidek. Edmund Weesenmayer stated during the trial against Ferenczy Laszlo: (about the concentration and deportation of Hungarian Jewry) "To fufill such a big task in a three month period, was only possible with the enthusiastic help of the Hungarian authorities."

In the Ghettos, there were Hungarian, who tortured the women, to find out were valuables, jewellery etc. were hidden. A Hungarian speaking Slovakien friend of mine (>from Bratislava) told me, that he don't like Hungarians (including Jews) because as a child refugee (15 years), in Hungary he never got any help, not even >from the Jewish community. He
was deported with many Hungarians to Auschwitz.

I am definitly not again feeling Hungarian or whatever you want to feel, but I am against ruleing [mod: I could not guess the meaning of the word] and generalisations.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch
----------------------------
Tom Venetianer previously wrote:

Just to come back to Hungary, the Hungarians *never* allowed Jews to be
free and full fledged citizens. To support this statement, please read the book written by my famous ancestor Venetianer Lajos (A Magyar Zsidosag
Tortenete - the history of Hungarian Jewry) who was *requested* by the
Budapest Jewish community to write a book in DEFENSE of the Hungarian Jews, demonstrating how good and decent citizens they were for centuries. The book is dated 1922 when religious integration and assimilations were the buzzwords. 20 years later the Arrow Cross were slaughtering us.

For G-d's sake, how can somebody feel himself a Hungarian Jew?
--------------------
Linda Cohen wrote:

I am an American who is Jewish, and I am a Jew who is an American. I don't need any one to give me the right to be who I am. No one can take who I am >from me as what we are in our minds and hearts


Re: Kapnibanya #hungary

diane goldman <dgoldman@...>
 

My map of Transylvania (purchased just this summer in Hungary) includes
Kapnikbanya (apparently the Hungarian name, as a Romanian name is noted
next to it--Cavnic). The town is east of Baia Mare (I'm guessing 30
km--the map is mostly great, but I've not located the scale on it). My
map includes pretty small towns, but this one looks large enough that it
should show on most maps. East of Baia Mare does mean Maramures, I
believe.

. . . . Can someone help me with the location of Kapnibanya? My aunt
was born there. It is located in Transylvania or more probably
Maramures. --Alfred Klein

--Diane Goldman
Bethesda, Md.
<dgoldman@erols.com>


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: * Being a Jew (was Re: Center for Jewish History) #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

Dear all
About beeing a Hungarian Jew, as far as I know, all my ancestors lived in the part, which is Hungary today. But for similar reason as Tom Venetianer told, I have difficulty to feel myself as a patriot or a Hungarian Jew, but I am of Hungarian and Jewish origin. There seems to be some different feeling between those whose ancestors emigrated in an earlier time
and were raised in a Hungarian Jewish tradition, and the ones who spent WWII in the country and emigrated later or may be the ones who still live in Hungary.

There was some antisemitism in the country already in the 20ies there were some attrocities against the jewish population ("feherterror"[mod: means White Terror- refer to the reaction against the short lived Socialist takeover by Bela Kun, a Hungarian Jew] against the bolshevik, but unproportianally against Jews too). after WWI the Hungarian goverment was the first to exploit the "jewish question" Teleki 1920-21 & 1939-41 and promulage antijewish laws (Randolph Braham)
In the 30ies under minister and president Daranyi and Imredy the antijewish laws were intensified with the 2nd anti Jewish legislation ind Dec. 1938 by ministers Teleki & Tasnadi Nagy,and then the 3rd antijewish laws under Bardossy Aug. 1941.

In the murder at Kamanec- Podolsk of several thousand expelled (18,000) Jews who could not prove Hungarian citizenship for at least 2 generation,s Hungary at least was partly to blame, as well for the attrocities agaionst the Jews in Delvidek/ Ujvidek. Edmund Weesenmayer stated during the trial against Ferenczy Laszlo: (about the concentration and deportation of Hungarian Jewry) "To fufill such a big task in a three month period, was only possible with the enthusiastic help of the Hungarian authorities."

In the Ghettos, there were Hungarian, who tortured the women, to find out were valuables, jewellery etc. were hidden. A Hungarian speaking Slovakien friend of mine (>from Bratislava) told me, that he don't like Hungarians (including Jews) because as a child refugee (15 years), in Hungary he never got any help, not even >from the Jewish community. He
was deported with many Hungarians to Auschwitz.

I am definitly not again feeling Hungarian or whatever you want to feel, but I am against ruleing [mod: I could not guess the meaning of the word] and generalisations.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch
----------------------------
Tom Venetianer previously wrote:

Just to come back to Hungary, the Hungarians *never* allowed Jews to be
free and full fledged citizens. To support this statement, please read the book written by my famous ancestor Venetianer Lajos (A Magyar Zsidosag
Tortenete - the history of Hungarian Jewry) who was *requested* by the
Budapest Jewish community to write a book in DEFENSE of the Hungarian Jews, demonstrating how good and decent citizens they were for centuries. The book is dated 1922 when religious integration and assimilations were the buzzwords. 20 years later the Arrow Cross were slaughtering us.

For G-d's sake, how can somebody feel himself a Hungarian Jew?
--------------------
Linda Cohen wrote:

I am an American who is Jewish, and I am a Jew who is an American. I don't need any one to give me the right to be who I am. No one can take who I am >from me as what we are in our minds and hearts


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Kapnibanya #hungary

diane goldman <dgoldman@...>
 

My map of Transylvania (purchased just this summer in Hungary) includes
Kapnikbanya (apparently the Hungarian name, as a Romanian name is noted
next to it--Cavnic). The town is east of Baia Mare (I'm guessing 30
km--the map is mostly great, but I've not located the scale on it). My
map includes pretty small towns, but this one looks large enough that it
should show on most maps. East of Baia Mare does mean Maramures, I
believe.

. . . . Can someone help me with the location of Kapnibanya? My aunt
was born there. It is located in Transylvania or more probably
Maramures. --Alfred Klein

--Diane Goldman
Bethesda, Md.
<dgoldman@erols.com>


Re: * Being a Jew (was Re: Center for Jewish History) #hungary

Barbara Kaufman <BABSK@...>
 

Dear Linda, Tom and All,

I think I can relate to what both of you have said. As an American, I
feel exactly as Linda does, but having just a month ago witnessed the
condition of the synagogues and cemeteries in Ukraine, Hungary and
Slovakia - and this many years after the real damage was done - Tom's
attitude is only too understandable. When I saw the bust of Monsignor
Hlinka in Presov, as if he were a hero, I thought for perhaps the tenth
time on the trip of how lucky I was that my grandparents, as young
teenagers, had the courage to make the frightening trip to America.

We have all read about the destruction of the synagogues and cemeteries
(I won't even include the people, since no one can ever understand that)
but when you actually see it the impact is unbelievable. No, we
Americans cannot possibly understand what it is like for those who have
to live among the people who did these things.

Barbara Kaufman


Vienna City Archives #hungary

ezwiebac <ezwiebac@...>
 

I have been writing to Vienna for birth & death records to:

Magistrat Der Stadt Wien
Magistratsabteilung 8
Rathaus,
1082 Wien

and have had excellent response by return airmail letters.
I just received a letter >from them via e-mail. I assume they may take
requests via e-mail at: POST@m08.magwien.gv.at
They reply in German.

Regards,
Ed Zwieback
Long Beach, CA
Researching:
ZWIEBACK/Herend, Hung.; Graz, Aus.
POLLAK/KOHN/N.Kanizsa, Hung.; Varazdin, Croa.
MARKBREITER/RISTA/Vienna, Aus.
GOLDSCHMIDT/SCHWARTZ/N.Kanizsa, Hung.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: * Being a Jew (was Re: Center for Jewish History) #hungary

Barbara Kaufman <BABSK@...>
 

Dear Linda, Tom and All,

I think I can relate to what both of you have said. As an American, I
feel exactly as Linda does, but having just a month ago witnessed the
condition of the synagogues and cemeteries in Ukraine, Hungary and
Slovakia - and this many years after the real damage was done - Tom's
attitude is only too understandable. When I saw the bust of Monsignor
Hlinka in Presov, as if he were a hero, I thought for perhaps the tenth
time on the trip of how lucky I was that my grandparents, as young
teenagers, had the courage to make the frightening trip to America.

We have all read about the destruction of the synagogues and cemeteries
(I won't even include the people, since no one can ever understand that)
but when you actually see it the impact is unbelievable. No, we
Americans cannot possibly understand what it is like for those who have
to live among the people who did these things.

Barbara Kaufman


Hungary SIG #Hungary Vienna City Archives #hungary

ezwiebac <ezwiebac@...>
 

I have been writing to Vienna for birth & death records to:

Magistrat Der Stadt Wien
Magistratsabteilung 8
Rathaus,
1082 Wien

and have had excellent response by return airmail letters.
I just received a letter >from them via e-mail. I assume they may take
requests via e-mail at: POST@m08.magwien.gv.at
They reply in German.

Regards,
Ed Zwieback
Long Beach, CA
Researching:
ZWIEBACK/Herend, Hung.; Graz, Aus.
POLLAK/KOHN/N.Kanizsa, Hung.; Varazdin, Croa.
MARKBREITER/RISTA/Vienna, Aus.
GOLDSCHMIDT/SCHWARTZ/N.Kanizsa, Hung.


Re: Kapnibanya #hungary

Bob Friedman <inwood@...>
 

On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:51:06 -0400, Alfred Klein wrote:
Can someone help me with the location of Kapnibanya?=20
The former Kapnikbanya is now Cavnic, just east of Baia Mare
(Nagybanya) and Baia Sprie (Felsobanya).

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com


Re: Kapnibanya #hungary

Barbara Kaufman <BABSK@...>
 

There is a Kapnikbanya that is now Cavnic in Romania.

Barbara Kaufman


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Kapnibanya #hungary

Bob Friedman <inwood@...>
 

On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:51:06 -0400, Alfred Klein wrote:
Can someone help me with the location of Kapnibanya?=20
The former Kapnikbanya is now Cavnic, just east of Baia Mare
(Nagybanya) and Baia Sprie (Felsobanya).

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Kapnibanya #hungary

Barbara Kaufman <BABSK@...>
 

There is a Kapnikbanya that is now Cavnic in Romania.

Barbara Kaufman


Re: 1787 Naming edict #hungary

PGergay@...
 

In a message dated 98-09-11 18:56:05 EDT, you write:

<<
According to this the emperor commanded all jews that HAD NO PREVIOUS
fixed last name to assume a German one. >>

Dear Alex,
This is not quite correct. While Joseph II did promulgate laws that
required (primarily for census purposes) people without surnames to adopt
one, the decision to assume German names was those of the Jews. They wanted to
signify their loyalty to the Habsburgs, and if I may add, in the eighteenth
century they had good reasons to do so....
Regards,
Peter A. Gergay
San Francisco,CA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: 1787 Naming edict #hungary

PGergay@...
 

In a message dated 98-09-11 18:56:05 EDT, you write:

<<
According to this the emperor commanded all jews that HAD NO PREVIOUS
fixed last name to assume a German one. >>

Dear Alex,
This is not quite correct. While Joseph II did promulgate laws that
required (primarily for census purposes) people without surnames to adopt
one, the decision to assume German names was those of the Jews. They wanted to
signify their loyalty to the Habsburgs, and if I may add, in the eighteenth
century they had good reasons to do so....
Regards,
Peter A. Gergay
San Francisco,CA


Re: JewishGen College Re-Opens!!! #belarus

Adarelana@...
 

As much as I would love to participate in this project, it is impossible at
this particular time. I hope it is repeated some time in the future when I
would be more able to participate.

Researching BELINKOFF >from Gomel. (Could this be a corruption of ALENIKOV?).
There are also BELINKOFFs in Philadelphia.

Adar Belinkoff
Claremont, CA


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: JewishGen College Re-Opens!!! #belarus

Adarelana@...
 

As much as I would love to participate in this project, it is impossible at
this particular time. I hope it is repeated some time in the future when I
would be more able to participate.

Researching BELINKOFF >from Gomel. (Could this be a corruption of ALENIKOV?).
There are also BELINKOFFs in Philadelphia.

Adar Belinkoff
Claremont, CA


Re: Orsha #belarus

Bryan Polikoff <polikoff@...>
 

At 11:23 pm 10/9/98, dardasht@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Orsha is, I believe, the next stop north on the train >from Mogilev. It is
relatively close to Mogilev.

Schelly TALALAY Dardashti
Mogilev city and Voratinschtina shtetl (agricultural colony established
by Baron Gunzberg/Ginsberg??? in 1830, about 18 km south southwest from
the city): TALALAY, BERLIN, MITTLEMAN, YASIN/JASSEN, MIRLS, MERLIN,
ALTSHULER, STAROSELSKY, KORE, DISKEN, DONIN, ROGOVER, GINSBERG, and many
more.
Hello again Schelly. I have a remotish Ginsberg connection. Rebecca
Ginsberg was the second wife of my great grandfather Abraham Poliakoff
(Vitebsk, Mariupol). They had five children together : Samuel, Alfred,
Dora, Anne and Sophie. Any takers? I understand some of the Ginsbergs
eventually settled in Paris, France. Dad used to tell me about Le Baron.

Bryan Polikoff
UK


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Orsha #belarus

Bryan Polikoff <polikoff@...>
 

At 11:23 pm 10/9/98, dardasht@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Orsha is, I believe, the next stop north on the train >from Mogilev. It is
relatively close to Mogilev.

Schelly TALALAY Dardashti
Mogilev city and Voratinschtina shtetl (agricultural colony established
by Baron Gunzberg/Ginsberg??? in 1830, about 18 km south southwest from
the city): TALALAY, BERLIN, MITTLEMAN, YASIN/JASSEN, MIRLS, MERLIN,
ALTSHULER, STAROSELSKY, KORE, DISKEN, DONIN, ROGOVER, GINSBERG, and many
more.
Hello again Schelly. I have a remotish Ginsberg connection. Rebecca
Ginsberg was the second wife of my great grandfather Abraham Poliakoff
(Vitebsk, Mariupol). They had five children together : Samuel, Alfred,
Dora, Anne and Sophie. Any takers? I understand some of the Ginsbergs
eventually settled in Paris, France. Dad used to tell me about Le Baron.

Bryan Polikoff
UK


Re: Rabbi BARNETT RUDNICK #belarus

BSwart10@...
 

Once again, I must say that all of you are just wonderful and I am so
grateful for all the help that I get >from each and everyone of you.

I got the name and address for Arthur Kurzweil >from a few of you and I
appreciate that you answered my message.

Thanks everyone.

BSwart10aol.com
Bea Swart
Tamarac, Florida

Researching: Rudnick, Kalstein, Swart >from Suwalki, Kreve or Kreva, London,
Boston and NYC.


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Rabbi BARNETT RUDNICK #belarus

BSwart10@...
 

Once again, I must say that all of you are just wonderful and I am so
grateful for all the help that I get >from each and everyone of you.

I got the name and address for Arthur Kurzweil >from a few of you and I
appreciate that you answered my message.

Thanks everyone.

BSwart10aol.com
Bea Swart
Tamarac, Florida

Researching: Rudnick, Kalstein, Swart >from Suwalki, Kreve or Kreva, London,
Boston and NYC.