Date   

French diplomatic archives #france

pinardpr@...
 

Dear French SIG,

Barbara Ras Wechsler asked about French diplomatic archives.
Here's the main website for the Quai D'Orsay's archives:

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/archives-diplomatiques/
There appear to two main places: one in the greater Paris region near St.
Denis and one in Nantes.

Centre des Archives diplomatiques de La Courneuve
Adresse
Centre des Archives diplomatiques
3, rue Suzanne Masson
93126 La Courneuve Cedex
Telephone
Salle de lecture : (33) (0)1 43 17 70 30
Permanence scientifique : (33) (0)1 43 17 70 36
Bibliotheque : (33) (0)1 43 17 42 63
Mail
Archives : lecture.archives@diplomatie.gouv.fr
Bibliotheque : biblio.archives@diplomatie.gouv.fr

Centre des Archives diplomatiques de Nantes
Adresse
Centre des Archives diplomatiques
17, rue de Casterneau
44000 Nantes
Telephone : (33) (0)2 51 77 24 59
Fax : (33) (0)2 51 77 24 60
Mail : archives.cadn@diplomatie.gouv.fr

Shalom >from Prague,

Rick Pinard


French SIG #France French diplomatic archives #france

pinardpr@...
 

Dear French SIG,

Barbara Ras Wechsler asked about French diplomatic archives.
Here's the main website for the Quai D'Orsay's archives:

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/archives-diplomatiques/
There appear to two main places: one in the greater Paris region near St.
Denis and one in Nantes.

Centre des Archives diplomatiques de La Courneuve
Adresse
Centre des Archives diplomatiques
3, rue Suzanne Masson
93126 La Courneuve Cedex
Telephone
Salle de lecture : (33) (0)1 43 17 70 30
Permanence scientifique : (33) (0)1 43 17 70 36
Bibliotheque : (33) (0)1 43 17 42 63
Mail
Archives : lecture.archives@diplomatie.gouv.fr
Bibliotheque : biblio.archives@diplomatie.gouv.fr

Centre des Archives diplomatiques de Nantes
Adresse
Centre des Archives diplomatiques
17, rue de Casterneau
44000 Nantes
Telephone : (33) (0)2 51 77 24 59
Fax : (33) (0)2 51 77 24 60
Mail : archives.cadn@diplomatie.gouv.fr

Shalom >from Prague,

Rick Pinard


Re: Karl Boskovitz #france

thierry.samama@...
 

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Barbara Ras Wechsler <bwras@bluewin.ch> wrote:
I am wondering, if somebody could let me know, where I could find telephone
books for Paris in the 1940s and 1950s.
These are held in at least two places:
- The Paris [Municipal] Archives, http://archives.paris.fr
- The historical archive of France Telecom, Archives et Patrimoine
Historique. Arnaud Jules, Central telephonique, 19 chemin Lateral,
94140 Alfortville, +33 1 57 36 56 52, arnaud.jules@orange.com.

At the same time, I am wondering if anybody in this forum knows, where I
could find records on French nationals born and raised in Egypt. The time
period is 1835 - 1956. Do I approach the French Konsulat or is there some
kind of national archive, similiar to the GRO in England.
BMD registers for French nationals born, married or deceased abroad are held:

- For records less than 100 years old, by the "Service Central de
l'Etat Civil". Requests for records may be submitted online at
https://pastel.diplomatie.gouv.fr/Dali

- For records more than 100 years old, microfilm copies can be viewed
at the "Centre des Archives Diplomatiques de La Courneuve",
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/archives-diplomatiques/acceder-aux-centres
-des-archives-diplomatiques/site-de-paris-la-courneuve/

In addition, other consular records for all French consular posts are
held at the "Centre des Archives Diplomatiques de Nantes",
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/archives-diplomatiques/acceder-aux-centres
-des-archives-diplomatiques/site-de-nantes/article/centre-des-archives-
diplomatiques-de-nantes

For Alexandria, the call number of the series is 20PO/1. For Cairo,
see 354PO/1, for Suez 656PO.

Also does somebody know, where (private) records of consulate employees
in Aleppo, Cairo and Alexandria are archived. The time period involved is
1825 - about 1860. My family married into the Jorelle family, a family of
French drogmans, who were "stationed" in Aleppo, Cairo and predominantly
in Alexandria, Egypt. (also related to the diplomat Jorelle >from Jerusalem).
See consular and diplomatic personnel records in Nantes and La Courneuve.

Last but not least, where are records kept of naturalizations outside of
France (Egypt). I am looking for information of a Domenic Hoyami, a Syrian
employee of the French embassy, his son (name unknown) and his granddaughters
Marie and Antoinette, who remained unmarried according to my information.
All French naturalization files are generally kept in two places:

- In the local administration where the application was submitted.
This is generally held in "Archives Departementales" for mainland
France, and probably consular posts in some cases for applications
abroad.

- Most reliably, in the "Archives Nationales" in Fontainebleau and
Pierrefitte-sur-Seine. The (somewhat involved) process to obtain the
application file, usually a gold mine of information, is described
here: http://www.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/web/guest/
dossiers-de-naturalisation

For the period 1900-1960, there seems to be only one naturalized
HOYAMI: HOYAMI Gaston born 16-01-1900 in Cheik Mikhail (Lebanon),
naturalization decree dated 30-09-1955 number 586x54-75. So your
HOYAMIs have probably been naturalized before 1900, thus requiring a
trip to Pierrefitte to identify the application file date and reference.

Good luck!

Thierry Samama
Cercle de Genealogie Juive, Paris, France
http://www.genealoj.org

Moderaror of the month: please NO ACCENTS


French SIG #France Re: Karl Boskovitz #france

thierry.samama@...
 

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Barbara Ras Wechsler <bwras@bluewin.ch> wrote:
I am wondering, if somebody could let me know, where I could find telephone
books for Paris in the 1940s and 1950s.
These are held in at least two places:
- The Paris [Municipal] Archives, http://archives.paris.fr
- The historical archive of France Telecom, Archives et Patrimoine
Historique. Arnaud Jules, Central telephonique, 19 chemin Lateral,
94140 Alfortville, +33 1 57 36 56 52, arnaud.jules@orange.com.

At the same time, I am wondering if anybody in this forum knows, where I
could find records on French nationals born and raised in Egypt. The time
period is 1835 - 1956. Do I approach the French Konsulat or is there some
kind of national archive, similiar to the GRO in England.
BMD registers for French nationals born, married or deceased abroad are held:

- For records less than 100 years old, by the "Service Central de
l'Etat Civil". Requests for records may be submitted online at
https://pastel.diplomatie.gouv.fr/Dali

- For records more than 100 years old, microfilm copies can be viewed
at the "Centre des Archives Diplomatiques de La Courneuve",
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/archives-diplomatiques/acceder-aux-centres
-des-archives-diplomatiques/site-de-paris-la-courneuve/

In addition, other consular records for all French consular posts are
held at the "Centre des Archives Diplomatiques de Nantes",
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/archives-diplomatiques/acceder-aux-centres
-des-archives-diplomatiques/site-de-nantes/article/centre-des-archives-
diplomatiques-de-nantes

For Alexandria, the call number of the series is 20PO/1. For Cairo,
see 354PO/1, for Suez 656PO.

Also does somebody know, where (private) records of consulate employees
in Aleppo, Cairo and Alexandria are archived. The time period involved is
1825 - about 1860. My family married into the Jorelle family, a family of
French drogmans, who were "stationed" in Aleppo, Cairo and predominantly
in Alexandria, Egypt. (also related to the diplomat Jorelle >from Jerusalem).
See consular and diplomatic personnel records in Nantes and La Courneuve.

Last but not least, where are records kept of naturalizations outside of
France (Egypt). I am looking for information of a Domenic Hoyami, a Syrian
employee of the French embassy, his son (name unknown) and his granddaughters
Marie and Antoinette, who remained unmarried according to my information.
All French naturalization files are generally kept in two places:

- In the local administration where the application was submitted.
This is generally held in "Archives Departementales" for mainland
France, and probably consular posts in some cases for applications
abroad.

- Most reliably, in the "Archives Nationales" in Fontainebleau and
Pierrefitte-sur-Seine. The (somewhat involved) process to obtain the
application file, usually a gold mine of information, is described
here: http://www.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/web/guest/
dossiers-de-naturalisation

For the period 1900-1960, there seems to be only one naturalized
HOYAMI: HOYAMI Gaston born 16-01-1900 in Cheik Mikhail (Lebanon),
naturalization decree dated 30-09-1955 number 586x54-75. So your
HOYAMIs have probably been naturalized before 1900, thus requiring a
trip to Pierrefitte to identify the application file date and reference.

Good luck!

Thierry Samama
Cercle de Genealogie Juive, Paris, France
http://www.genealoj.org

Moderaror of the month: please NO ACCENTS


The Conference Hotel is Almost Fully Booked #ukraine

cmw521@...
 

The Seattle Sheraton Hotel has booked all of the available rooms for the
Conference and has only a handful of deluxe rooms left. They are pricing
the deluxe rooms at $239 for Conference attendees. These rooms are
available at other times for $379 per night. Once these rooms are booked,
there will be no more room at the Conference Hotel.

We have made arrangements with the Hyatt Olive 8 hotel, about 4 blocks from
the Sheraton, for a limited number of rooms at $289 per night. Given that
the Conference coincides with the height of the tourism season, and there
are no other major hotels downtown with rooms available, this was the best
we could do. The Hyatt will give that rate to Conference attendees who use
the following link: https://aws.passkey.com/event/15080205/owner/69782/home.
The website is being updated to reflect that information.

As you can tell, Seattle is the place to be, August 7-12. Make your plans
to attend the Conference and reserve your space if you have not already done
so. And if you have not reserved your meals or banquet tickets, you should
do so soon before they sell out. Most of our computer labs have been
waitlisted, and we are arranging to add additional labs. We will not be
able to do that with the meals.

See you in Seattle!

Chuck Weinstein
Co-chair
36th Annual IAJGS Conference on Jewish Genealogy
August 7-12, 2016, Seattle WA
chuck@iajgs2016.org
www.iajgs2016.org
Like our Facebook Page at https://www.facebook.com/IAJGSConference?fref=ts


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine The Conference Hotel is Almost Fully Booked #ukraine

cmw521@...
 

The Seattle Sheraton Hotel has booked all of the available rooms for the
Conference and has only a handful of deluxe rooms left. They are pricing
the deluxe rooms at $239 for Conference attendees. These rooms are
available at other times for $379 per night. Once these rooms are booked,
there will be no more room at the Conference Hotel.

We have made arrangements with the Hyatt Olive 8 hotel, about 4 blocks from
the Sheraton, for a limited number of rooms at $289 per night. Given that
the Conference coincides with the height of the tourism season, and there
are no other major hotels downtown with rooms available, this was the best
we could do. The Hyatt will give that rate to Conference attendees who use
the following link: https://aws.passkey.com/event/15080205/owner/69782/home.
The website is being updated to reflect that information.

As you can tell, Seattle is the place to be, August 7-12. Make your plans
to attend the Conference and reserve your space if you have not already done
so. And if you have not reserved your meals or banquet tickets, you should
do so soon before they sell out. Most of our computer labs have been
waitlisted, and we are arranging to add additional labs. We will not be
able to do that with the meals.

See you in Seattle!

Chuck Weinstein
Co-chair
36th Annual IAJGS Conference on Jewish Genealogy
August 7-12, 2016, Seattle WA
chuck@iajgs2016.org
www.iajgs2016.org
Like our Facebook Page at https://www.facebook.com/IAJGSConference?fref=ts


Re: Different birthdates #general

Mel Comisarow
 

Shelley Mitchell commented on male/female ages in historical records:
Many men wanted to seem old enough to enlist. For women, it was often the
opposite. All my great aunts seem to have grown younger with each marriage.
Well young females wanted to be older. My paternal, paternal great grandmother
was probably 14 when the 1858 Russian census recorded her age as 18; 18 to 20
being the "perfect" age for females both then and now. On the other hand, maybe
her 20-year-old husband didn't want to look like a pedophile and so he was the
one who bumped up his wife's age.

Mel Comisarow
Vancouver BC

MODERATOR NOTE: When responding to messages, please use the same subject line as
in the original message, prefaced by Re:


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Different birthdates #general

Mel Comisarow
 

Shelley Mitchell commented on male/female ages in historical records:
Many men wanted to seem old enough to enlist. For women, it was often the
opposite. All my great aunts seem to have grown younger with each marriage.
Well young females wanted to be older. My paternal, paternal great grandmother
was probably 14 when the 1858 Russian census recorded her age as 18; 18 to 20
being the "perfect" age for females both then and now. On the other hand, maybe
her 20-year-old husband didn't want to look like a pedophile and so he was the
one who bumped up his wife's age.

Mel Comisarow
Vancouver BC

MODERATOR NOTE: When responding to messages, please use the same subject line as
in the original message, prefaced by Re:


Weekly Yizkor book spotlight on JewishGen Facebook page #general

Bruce Drake <BDrake@...>
 

This week's excerpt is "Reb Shabtai (Spiegel) the Tavern Keeper" >from the book
of Rozniatow, a shtetl in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains in
southeastern Galicia, in the region of Stanislawow, about 25 miles west of
Ivano-Frankivsk. This is one of the books that the Yizkor Books in Print
Project has published in hardcover and which can be ordered here
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/ybip/YBIP_Rozhnyativ.html

There is also a KehilaLinks site for this town
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Rozhnyatov/Rozhome.html.

The excerpt is a wonderful description of a small tavern (and some of the
drunkards it attracted) and comes to a touching end when Reb Shabtai, now
retired, encounters a fellow Jew badly in need.

Here is the excerpt:
https://www.facebook.com/JewishGen.org/posts/1101317546557066:0

Bruce Drake
Silver Spring, MD

Researching: DRACH, EBERT, KIMMEL, ZLOTNICK
Towns: Wohnilow, Kovel


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Weekly Yizkor book spotlight on JewishGen Facebook page #general

Bruce Drake <BDrake@...>
 

This week's excerpt is "Reb Shabtai (Spiegel) the Tavern Keeper" >from the book
of Rozniatow, a shtetl in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains in
southeastern Galicia, in the region of Stanislawow, about 25 miles west of
Ivano-Frankivsk. This is one of the books that the Yizkor Books in Print
Project has published in hardcover and which can be ordered here
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/ybip/YBIP_Rozhnyativ.html

There is also a KehilaLinks site for this town
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Rozhnyatov/Rozhome.html.

The excerpt is a wonderful description of a small tavern (and some of the
drunkards it attracted) and comes to a touching end when Reb Shabtai, now
retired, encounters a fellow Jew badly in need.

Here is the excerpt:
https://www.facebook.com/JewishGen.org/posts/1101317546557066:0

Bruce Drake
Silver Spring, MD

Researching: DRACH, EBERT, KIMMEL, ZLOTNICK
Towns: Wohnilow, Kovel


Re: Different birthdates #general

Joan
 

I would like to thank everyone again who responded to my query and for the
advise.

Joan Silverman
Researching: Goldberg, Schwartz, Silverman, Zalka (Dzailka)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: Different birthdates #general

Joan
 

I would like to thank everyone again who responded to my query and for the
advise.

Joan Silverman
Researching: Goldberg, Schwartz, Silverman, Zalka (Dzailka)


Question about Religious vs. Civil Marriages in New York #general

Becker, Risa (GfK) <Risa.Becker@...>
 

I am researching a relative who lived in NYC in 1905. I found information in
the NYC records to show his date of marriage as January 21, 1906. However in
the 1905 NYC census (collected in July 1905) he appears with his wife, listed
as married.

Was it common at that time in NYC to have a religious marriage prior to a
civil ceremony? And if so, why. didn't the religious ceremony count legally?
Is there another explanation for why I might see this? Any help would be
appreciated!

Risa Becker


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Question about Religious vs. Civil Marriages in New York #general

Becker, Risa (GfK) <Risa.Becker@...>
 

I am researching a relative who lived in NYC in 1905. I found information in
the NYC records to show his date of marriage as January 21, 1906. However in
the 1905 NYC census (collected in July 1905) he appears with his wife, listed
as married.

Was it common at that time in NYC to have a religious marriage prior to a
civil ceremony? And if so, why. didn't the religious ceremony count legally?
Is there another explanation for why I might see this? Any help would be
appreciated!

Risa Becker


Re: Different birthdates #general

Diane Jacobs
 

I have also seen on the jewishgen.org database records where three children
of the same parents are registered in the same year because the parents
didn't register the first two when they were born and did so when the third
child was born. Many times birth were registered years after the event.

Diane Jacobs
Somerset, NJ

Marion E Werle werleme@gmail.com wrote:

I would recommend reading Christine Rose's book, Genealogical Proof
Standard: Building a Solid Case/ 4th ed. San Jose: CR Publications,
2014. It is a very readable book on the Genealogical Proof Standard
and evidence evaluation, two methodology topics that are critical to
evaluating genealogical records with conflicting data. Records can be
primary, derivative and authored; the information on them can be
primary, secondary and unknown; and evidence can be direct, indirect
and negative.

In your case, we don't know who provided the age information on the
census records (not to mention that the informant may not have known or
people sometimes lie). I've also seen mistakes on draft registration
records that conflict with date on the birth record. Since the birth
record is the official record provided at the time of the event (the
birth) by people who witnessed (or were present at the time of) the
event, I'd take that as more reliable than a census record or draft
record. Since you aren't cognizant at your own birth, you only know
your birth date because someone told you or because you saw your
birth certificate. Birthdays weren't a big deal to our ancestors and
it's not uncommon for them to supply different birthdates than show
on their actual birth record, which they may never have seen.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: Different birthdates #general

Diane Jacobs
 

I have also seen on the jewishgen.org database records where three children
of the same parents are registered in the same year because the parents
didn't register the first two when they were born and did so when the third
child was born. Many times birth were registered years after the event.

Diane Jacobs
Somerset, NJ

Marion E Werle werleme@gmail.com wrote:

I would recommend reading Christine Rose's book, Genealogical Proof
Standard: Building a Solid Case/ 4th ed. San Jose: CR Publications,
2014. It is a very readable book on the Genealogical Proof Standard
and evidence evaluation, two methodology topics that are critical to
evaluating genealogical records with conflicting data. Records can be
primary, derivative and authored; the information on them can be
primary, secondary and unknown; and evidence can be direct, indirect
and negative.

In your case, we don't know who provided the age information on the
census records (not to mention that the informant may not have known or
people sometimes lie). I've also seen mistakes on draft registration
records that conflict with date on the birth record. Since the birth
record is the official record provided at the time of the event (the
birth) by people who witnessed (or were present at the time of) the
event, I'd take that as more reliable than a census record or draft
record. Since you aren't cognizant at your own birth, you only know
your birth date because someone told you or because you saw your
birth certificate. Birthdays weren't a big deal to our ancestors and
it's not uncommon for them to supply different birthdates than show
on their actual birth record, which they may never have seen.


Re: Different birthdates #general

Rose Feldman <rosef@...>
 

I only discovered my mother had added 2 years to her age when she was
70+. She had traveled alone >from Palestine to the US in 1922. She
would have been 16 and changed things so she was 18. Since her
document was in Turkish in Arabic script, I doubt if anyone in
Providence Rhode Island could read it.

We were standing at her sister's grave site for the memorial prayers
when my mother said, don't put the year of birth on my tombstone. My
parents had a plot reserved near by. I asked why, and she answered -
how would it look if two sisters had the same year of birth. Now since
both were married, and their maiden name was common, only the family
knows the sisters are buried near each other.

She went through her whole life with the wrong year of birth.

Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general and
Jewish and Israeli roots in particular with
http://twitter.com/JewDataGenGirl


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Different birthdates #general

Rose Feldman <rosef@...>
 

I only discovered my mother had added 2 years to her age when she was
70+. She had traveled alone >from Palestine to the US in 1922. She
would have been 16 and changed things so she was 18. Since her
document was in Turkish in Arabic script, I doubt if anyone in
Providence Rhode Island could read it.

We were standing at her sister's grave site for the memorial prayers
when my mother said, don't put the year of birth on my tombstone. My
parents had a plot reserved near by. I asked why, and she answered -
how would it look if two sisters had the same year of birth. Now since
both were married, and their maiden name was common, only the family
knows the sisters are buried near each other.

She went through her whole life with the wrong year of birth.

Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general and
Jewish and Israeli roots in particular with
http://twitter.com/JewDataGenGirl


Re: OSTROFSKY Glasgow? --> NYC #general

rv Kaplan
 

No reason why they couldn't have come >from Fastov, Ukraine originally
and stopped off in Scotland or passed through to get a ship from
Glasgow. Glasgow was a common port of embarkation for the USA at that
time, but it may be that they only lived in Scotland a short time, or
were just passing through. There were some people with this surname in
Scotland, but not sure if they were all the same family.

Unfortunately, there are no arrival records for us to consult for when
they arrived in Scotland, so not sure how you will prove this, unless
you go with the naturalisation record, or find them at the Ukraine
end.

For what it's worth, my mother's parents came >from Kaminets-Podolsk in
the Ukraine in 1903-6, via Rotterdam, to Glasgow.

Harvey L Kaplan
Scottish Jewish Archives Centre
Glasgow

On 27 May 2016 at 21:10, Myrna Goodman myrna.goodman@gmail.com wrote:
I hope someone can help me find a way to trace my grandparents' original place
of embarkation to Glasgow. David and Lena OSTROFSKY left for NYC >from Glasgow
on the Columbia in June 1906, landed on June 6 and were detained (my grandmother
was very pregnant with my aunt, who was born in NYC about a week after they
arrived). They were released on June 8th,1906.

On my grandfather's naturalization document, his last place of residence is
given as Fastov. The family believes they were >from Odessa. Is it possible the
clerk misunderstood Glasgow for Fastov?

Is there a database that lists embarkation sites?


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: OSTROFSKY Glasgow? --> NYC #general

rv Kaplan
 

No reason why they couldn't have come >from Fastov, Ukraine originally
and stopped off in Scotland or passed through to get a ship from
Glasgow. Glasgow was a common port of embarkation for the USA at that
time, but it may be that they only lived in Scotland a short time, or
were just passing through. There were some people with this surname in
Scotland, but not sure if they were all the same family.

Unfortunately, there are no arrival records for us to consult for when
they arrived in Scotland, so not sure how you will prove this, unless
you go with the naturalisation record, or find them at the Ukraine
end.

For what it's worth, my mother's parents came >from Kaminets-Podolsk in
the Ukraine in 1903-6, via Rotterdam, to Glasgow.

Harvey L Kaplan
Scottish Jewish Archives Centre
Glasgow

On 27 May 2016 at 21:10, Myrna Goodman myrna.goodman@gmail.com wrote:
I hope someone can help me find a way to trace my grandparents' original place
of embarkation to Glasgow. David and Lena OSTROFSKY left for NYC >from Glasgow
on the Columbia in June 1906, landed on June 6 and were detained (my grandmother
was very pregnant with my aunt, who was born in NYC about a week after they
arrived). They were released on June 8th,1906.

On my grandfather's naturalization document, his last place of residence is
given as Fastov. The family believes they were >from Odessa. Is it possible the
clerk misunderstood Glasgow for Fastov?

Is there a database that lists embarkation sites?

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