Date   

FW: language spoken and border crossings #bessarabia

Yefim Kogan
 

from Marie Barak, Marie Barak <mariezing@googlemail.com>
On the birth register of my grandfather Nahman Barac, Nua Sulita 1890 (now
Ukraine), the language is romanian. As for his siblings.
In his french naturalization papers is written that he was born in Russia.
So why are the registers are written in romanian?

I read that this small town was divided in 2 parts, on one side of the Prut,
the austrian part, on the other side the russian part.

How can I know in which part my grandfather lived?

I know that my grandfather spoke yiddish, german, russian, and other local
languages. As a jew he couldn't study (he learned as "extern").
Which could be proof that he lived on the russian side (numerus clausus),
but his father Moishe Barak was supposed to be a member of the austrian
chamber of commerce as a grain merchant (a relative living in Chile told me
so)!

One of his nephew, Nahman Zisman, studied in Czernowiz in german...

Marie BARAK
Berlin, Germany
mariezing@gmail.com


Bessarabia SIG #Bessarabia FW: language spoken and border crossings #bessarabia

Yefim Kogan
 

from Marie Barak, Marie Barak <mariezing@googlemail.com>
On the birth register of my grandfather Nahman Barac, Nua Sulita 1890 (now
Ukraine), the language is romanian. As for his siblings.
In his french naturalization papers is written that he was born in Russia.
So why are the registers are written in romanian?

I read that this small town was divided in 2 parts, on one side of the Prut,
the austrian part, on the other side the russian part.

How can I know in which part my grandfather lived?

I know that my grandfather spoke yiddish, german, russian, and other local
languages. As a jew he couldn't study (he learned as "extern").
Which could be proof that he lived on the russian side (numerus clausus),
but his father Moishe Barak was supposed to be a member of the austrian
chamber of commerce as a grain merchant (a relative living in Chile told me
so)!

One of his nephew, Nahman Zisman, studied in Czernowiz in german...

Marie BARAK
Berlin, Germany
mariezing@gmail.com


Re: bessarabia digest: December 14, 2013 #bessarabia

Yefim Kogan
 

Jessica,

………."Please clarify: Wasn't Turkish citizenship listed was because they were
born before 1812 when Bessarabia was conquered by Russia?"………..

No, I do not think so. People who lived in Moldova Principality were
citizens of Moldova!! We have records even among Bessarabian records from
1830-50s, when the other side of Moldova were still under Ottoman Empire,
some Jews in these records were citizens of Moldova.
There were also citizens of Turkey who came also for a marriage or business.
In many such cases it is written in the records - resident of Constantinople
(Istanbul).

Yes, I do agree that the borders changed a lot!
I want to add to it... in two counties(uezd) of Bessarabia - Kagul and
Ismail, the borders changed even more:
1812-1856 - Russia
1856-1878 - Moldova Principality(Romania in 1870s)
1878-1917 - Back to Russia

See the map on the page 4 at
http://www.jewishgen.org/Bessarabia/files/HistoryOfJewsInBessarabia15-19c.pd
f

That small area included towns of Kiliya, Ismail, Reni, Cahul, Leovo,
Bolgrad, Tatarbunar, and probably more... where Jews used to live.

All the best,
Yefim Kogan
Bessarabia SIG Coordinator
Researching KOGAN, SPIVAK, KHAYMOVICH, SRULEVICH, LEVIT in Kaushany,
Bendery, Tarutino, Akkerman, Kiliya - all in Bessarabia, KHAIMOVICH in
Galatz, Romania, KOGAN in Dubossary, Moldova, SRULEVICH in Shanghai, China

-----Original Message-----
From: Jessica Schein [mailto:jesshschein@att.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:45 AM
To: Bessarabia SIG
Subject: RE: bessarabia digest: December 14, 2013


Bessarabia SIG #Bessarabia RE: bessarabia digest: December 14, 2013 #bessarabia

Yefim Kogan
 

Jessica,

………."Please clarify: Wasn't Turkish citizenship listed was because they were
born before 1812 when Bessarabia was conquered by Russia?"………..

No, I do not think so. People who lived in Moldova Principality were
citizens of Moldova!! We have records even among Bessarabian records from
1830-50s, when the other side of Moldova were still under Ottoman Empire,
some Jews in these records were citizens of Moldova.
There were also citizens of Turkey who came also for a marriage or business.
In many such cases it is written in the records - resident of Constantinople
(Istanbul).

Yes, I do agree that the borders changed a lot!
I want to add to it... in two counties(uezd) of Bessarabia - Kagul and
Ismail, the borders changed even more:
1812-1856 - Russia
1856-1878 - Moldova Principality(Romania in 1870s)
1878-1917 - Back to Russia

See the map on the page 4 at
http://www.jewishgen.org/Bessarabia/files/HistoryOfJewsInBessarabia15-19c.pd
f

That small area included towns of Kiliya, Ismail, Reni, Cahul, Leovo,
Bolgrad, Tatarbunar, and probably more... where Jews used to live.

All the best,
Yefim Kogan
Bessarabia SIG Coordinator
Researching KOGAN, SPIVAK, KHAYMOVICH, SRULEVICH, LEVIT in Kaushany,
Bendery, Tarutino, Akkerman, Kiliya - all in Bessarabia, KHAIMOVICH in
Galatz, Romania, KOGAN in Dubossary, Moldova, SRULEVICH in Shanghai, China

-----Original Message-----
From: Jessica Schein [mailto:jesshschein@att.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:45 AM
To: Bessarabia SIG
Subject: RE: bessarabia digest: December 14, 2013


Re: translations #bessarabia

Yefim Kogan
 

Ellen,

JewishGen has a very good way to translate at least the small post cards. Go
to ViewMate and upload the cards, telling a bit about it in the message,
language, time, etc. With the large letters you may need to hire
translators, because it is a very hard job to translate hand written
letters. Maybe people who can translate will reply to your message...
Please let me know in a while if you got any response.

All the best,
Yefim Kogan
Bessarabia SIG Coordinator
Researching KOGAN, SPIVAK, KHAYMOVICH, SRULEVICH, LEVIT in Kaushany,
Bendery, Tarutino, Akkerman, Kiliya - all in Bessarabia, KHAIMOVICH in
Galatz, Romania, KOGAN in Dubossary, Moldova, SRULEVICH in Shanghai, China

-----Original Message-----
From: sherpa11@aol.com [mailto:sherpa11@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Bessarabia SIG
Subject: translations

Hello all-

The discussions lately about languages have been very interesting and have
relit the fire for me to try to obtain accurate translations for some
letters and postcards I have. If anyone can read and translate for me or
refer to someone who may be able to, I would be grateful. Most are in
Yiddish and a few in Polish. I have tried to find translators/Yiddish groups
locally, but to no avail.

Thanks so much!

Ellen Gitt


Bessarabia SIG #Bessarabia RE: translations #bessarabia

Yefim Kogan
 

Ellen,

JewishGen has a very good way to translate at least the small post cards. Go
to ViewMate and upload the cards, telling a bit about it in the message,
language, time, etc. With the large letters you may need to hire
translators, because it is a very hard job to translate hand written
letters. Maybe people who can translate will reply to your message...
Please let me know in a while if you got any response.

All the best,
Yefim Kogan
Bessarabia SIG Coordinator
Researching KOGAN, SPIVAK, KHAYMOVICH, SRULEVICH, LEVIT in Kaushany,
Bendery, Tarutino, Akkerman, Kiliya - all in Bessarabia, KHAIMOVICH in
Galatz, Romania, KOGAN in Dubossary, Moldova, SRULEVICH in Shanghai, China

-----Original Message-----
From: sherpa11@aol.com [mailto:sherpa11@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Bessarabia SIG
Subject: translations

Hello all-

The discussions lately about languages have been very interesting and have
relit the fire for me to try to obtain accurate translations for some
letters and postcards I have. If anyone can read and translate for me or
refer to someone who may be able to, I would be grateful. Most are in
Yiddish and a few in Polish. I have tried to find translators/Yiddish groups
locally, but to no avail.

Thanks so much!

Ellen Gitt


Re: Levites or not? #general

Martin Davis <dawidowicz@...>
 

Minor mistakes on katubot are par for the course. Often the masons
in the US and UK were/are not Jewish and although they could/can
carve Hebrew letters they are reliant on the family or a local rabbi
to provide them with the text to copy. However, it would be a pretty
big mistake to carve H'Levi as this would confer on the dead person a
particular and often coveted status and would require all those
present at the funeral (including the officiating rabbi) to
acknowledge that status.
Martin Davis
London (UK)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Levites or not? #general

Martin Davis <dawidowicz@...>
 

Minor mistakes on katubot are par for the course. Often the masons
in the US and UK were/are not Jewish and although they could/can
carve Hebrew letters they are reliant on the family or a local rabbi
to provide them with the text to copy. However, it would be a pretty
big mistake to carve H'Levi as this would confer on the dead person a
particular and often coveted status and would require all those
present at the funeral (including the officiating rabbi) to
acknowledge that status.
Martin Davis
London (UK)


Re: KehilaLinks Project Report for November 2013 #courland #latvia

Naomi B Yodaiken <baumslag@...>
 

Very impressive
Will someone do pilot for Vitebsk
Best
Naomi



On Dec 5, 2013, at 4:31 AM, Susana Leistner Bloch <bloch@mts.net> wrote:

We are pleased to welcome the following webpages to JewishGen KehilaLinks. We thank the owners and webmasters of these webpages for creating fitting memorials to these Kehilot (Jewish Communities) and for providing a valuable resource for future generations of their descendants.

[ ... List of KehilaLinks projects ... ]
~~~

If you wish to create a KehilaLinks webpage or adopt an exiting "orphaned"
webpage please contact us at: < bloch@mts.net >.

NEED TECHNICAL HELP CREATING A WEBPAGE?: We have a team of dedicated
volunteer webpage designers who will help you create a webpage.
~~~

Susana Leistner Bloch, VP, KehilaLinks, JewishGen, Inc.
Barbara Ellman, KehilaLinks Technical Coordinator


Courland SIG #Courland #Latvia Re: KehilaLinks Project Report for November 2013 #courland #latvia

Naomi B Yodaiken <baumslag@...>
 

Very impressive
Will someone do pilot for Vitebsk
Best
Naomi



On Dec 5, 2013, at 4:31 AM, Susana Leistner Bloch <bloch@mts.net> wrote:

We are pleased to welcome the following webpages to JewishGen KehilaLinks. We thank the owners and webmasters of these webpages for creating fitting memorials to these Kehilot (Jewish Communities) and for providing a valuable resource for future generations of their descendants.

[ ... List of KehilaLinks projects ... ]
~~~

If you wish to create a KehilaLinks webpage or adopt an exiting "orphaned"
webpage please contact us at: < bloch@mts.net >.

NEED TECHNICAL HELP CREATING A WEBPAGE?: We have a team of dedicated
volunteer webpage designers who will help you create a webpage.
~~~

Susana Leistner Bloch, VP, KehilaLinks, JewishGen, Inc.
Barbara Ellman, KehilaLinks Technical Coordinator


handling Julian dates #lithuania

Herbert Lazerow
 

<I'm curious...I have many relatives who were born in Lithuania with Julian
birthdates, emigrated to the West, and have Gregorian death dates. Almost
always, these relatives didn't bother with the calendar transition; if
their gravestones have full dates, they list the Julian birth and Gregorian
death.
Does anyone account for the difference in their tree? I've been doing this
for a while, translating the Julian date to Gregorian, but I'm starting to
wonder if that's the right way to go about this. I do record the Julian
date in the fact notes.>

Not sure that there is a genealogically "correct" way to do this, but
I think you are expressing this as clearly as possible by translating to
the Gregorian date on the genealogy and noting in the notes the Julian date
on the original records. That should be clear to every reader of your
document.

Bert
Herbert Lazerow
Professor of Law and
Director, Summer Law Programs Abroad
University of San Diego
5998 Alcala Park
San Diego CA 92110-2492 U.S.A.
lazer@sandiego.edu


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania handling Julian dates #lithuania

Herbert Lazerow
 

<I'm curious...I have many relatives who were born in Lithuania with Julian
birthdates, emigrated to the West, and have Gregorian death dates. Almost
always, these relatives didn't bother with the calendar transition; if
their gravestones have full dates, they list the Julian birth and Gregorian
death.
Does anyone account for the difference in their tree? I've been doing this
for a while, translating the Julian date to Gregorian, but I'm starting to
wonder if that's the right way to go about this. I do record the Julian
date in the fact notes.>

Not sure that there is a genealogically "correct" way to do this, but
I think you are expressing this as clearly as possible by translating to
the Gregorian date on the genealogy and noting in the notes the Julian date
on the original records. That should be clear to every reader of your
document.

Bert
Herbert Lazerow
Professor of Law and
Director, Summer Law Programs Abroad
University of San Diego
5998 Alcala Park
San Diego CA 92110-2492 U.S.A.
lazer@sandiego.edu


Re: bessarabia digest: December 13, 2013 #bessarabia

henry seigel <sigmundtrav@...>
 

Interesting question. >from my research on my family most of whom left Lipkani around 1885
with one elder sister coming in 1890, the men all seemed to speak Russian and Yiddish (so
reported by 2nd cousin in CA who came with bulk of family), but my own grandmother,
according to my late father, spoke Romanian and Yiddish, not Russian. I theorize that since
the men were much more involved in the OFFICIAL outside world and would definitely be
subject to service in the Tsar's army, that they were required (forced ?) to speak Russian,
the lingua franca of Russia, but that the women, engaging outside the house mostly in
market economy didn't learn it as they interacted with the locals who still, even after the
transfer of Ottoman Romanian lands to Russia, spoke their own language.

HENRY A. SEIGEL
Philadelphia PA.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bessarabia SIG digest <bessarabia@lyris.jewishgen.org
Sent: Dec 14, 2013 2:04 AM
To: bessarabia digest recipients <bessarabia@lyris.jewishgen.org
Subject: Languages in Moldova and Moldovia

From: Anna Reuter <anna94306@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 07:06:22 -0800 (PST)

Hi Yefim:
…….. Could you also give us your take on the languages used in the two regions over that 200
year period? Among and between Jews,  Yiddish (German Dialect) would
be spoken, of course. And if they were literate,  they would write Yiddish with
Hebrew letters. 

How about the divide between Romania and Bessarabia  (when it was part of the
Russian Empire)? My father, born in Bessarabia in 1905, claimed to speak Russian
in addition to Yiddish.   But Bessarabia was closer to Ukraine.  Would his version
of Russian with the Cyrillic Alphabet be more similar to Ukrainian?
Ukrainian and Russian Languages share some commonality with Cyrillic letters,
but there are differences.

Then there is Romania and/or the Moldavia Principality. They would speak
Romanian, of course, and use  a Latin Alphabet but with 31 letters.
Romanian is a Romance Language with roots in Latin.
Please correct me if I did not get this right.

Thanks,

Anna Reuter
Palo Alto, California


Bessarabia SIG #Bessarabia Re: bessarabia digest: December 13, 2013 #bessarabia

henry seigel <sigmundtrav@...>
 

Interesting question. >from my research on my family most of whom left Lipkani around 1885
with one elder sister coming in 1890, the men all seemed to speak Russian and Yiddish (so
reported by 2nd cousin in CA who came with bulk of family), but my own grandmother,
according to my late father, spoke Romanian and Yiddish, not Russian. I theorize that since
the men were much more involved in the OFFICIAL outside world and would definitely be
subject to service in the Tsar's army, that they were required (forced ?) to speak Russian,
the lingua franca of Russia, but that the women, engaging outside the house mostly in
market economy didn't learn it as they interacted with the locals who still, even after the
transfer of Ottoman Romanian lands to Russia, spoke their own language.

HENRY A. SEIGEL
Philadelphia PA.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bessarabia SIG digest <bessarabia@lyris.jewishgen.org
Sent: Dec 14, 2013 2:04 AM
To: bessarabia digest recipients <bessarabia@lyris.jewishgen.org
Subject: Languages in Moldova and Moldovia

From: Anna Reuter <anna94306@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 07:06:22 -0800 (PST)

Hi Yefim:
…….. Could you also give us your take on the languages used in the two regions over that 200
year period? Among and between Jews,  Yiddish (German Dialect) would
be spoken, of course. And if they were literate,  they would write Yiddish with
Hebrew letters. 

How about the divide between Romania and Bessarabia  (when it was part of the
Russian Empire)? My father, born in Bessarabia in 1905, claimed to speak Russian
in addition to Yiddish.   But Bessarabia was closer to Ukraine.  Would his version
of Russian with the Cyrillic Alphabet be more similar to Ukrainian?
Ukrainian and Russian Languages share some commonality with Cyrillic letters,
but there are differences.

Then there is Romania and/or the Moldavia Principality. They would speak
Romanian, of course, and use  a Latin Alphabet but with 31 letters.
Romanian is a Romance Language with roots in Latin.
Please correct me if I did not get this right.

Thanks,

Anna Reuter
Palo Alto, California


Is name Gusel a Polish Jewish name? #poland

mike jackoboice <mikejackoboice@...>
 

Quick question?

Is the first/given name "Gusel" a male, Polish Jewish name?

Any insights to this name appreciated!

Mike Jackoboice


JRI Poland #Poland Is name Gusel a Polish Jewish name? #poland

mike jackoboice <mikejackoboice@...>
 

Quick question?

Is the first/given name "Gusel" a male, Polish Jewish name?

Any insights to this name appreciated!

Mike Jackoboice


Re: need help with translating Polish statement #poland

Alex Franz <shikuki@...>
 

Am 13.12.2013 21:13, schrieb RuthNW:

I'm transcribing some Polish birth records. The following statement
is sometimes included by an official >from the mayor's office.
This is how it appears to me.

Urodzik stanu cywilnego ma spraw wyznani wiary niechneseijanskiej
(The last word might be niechrzeseijanskiej) [...]

Please help me translate the above statement into English. [...]


Naidia Woolf
San Francisco, California, USA
ruthnw@comcast.net

Dear Naidia, dear all!

The sentence "Urzednik stanu cywilnego ma spraw wyznan
niechrzescianskiej" simply means that <the Registrar`s office deals with
non-christian affairs>, so maybe the author of the document is trying to
suggest contacting the Registrar's Office [USC - Urzad
Stanu Cywilnego] as they might better be able to help you finding an
answer.

KInd regards, Alex. in Mainz/Germany


JRI Poland #Poland Re: need help with translating Polish statement #poland

Alex Franz <shikuki@...>
 

Am 13.12.2013 21:13, schrieb RuthNW:

I'm transcribing some Polish birth records. The following statement
is sometimes included by an official >from the mayor's office.
This is how it appears to me.

Urodzik stanu cywilnego ma spraw wyznani wiary niechneseijanskiej
(The last word might be niechrzeseijanskiej) [...]

Please help me translate the above statement into English. [...]


Naidia Woolf
San Francisco, California, USA
ruthnw@comcast.net

Dear Naidia, dear all!

The sentence "Urzednik stanu cywilnego ma spraw wyznan
niechrzescianskiej" simply means that <the Registrar`s office deals with
non-christian affairs>, so maybe the author of the document is trying to
suggest contacting the Registrar's Office [USC - Urzad
Stanu Cywilnego] as they might better be able to help you finding an
answer.

KInd regards, Alex. in Mainz/Germany


How do you handle Julian dates in your tree? #lithuania

Art Poskanzer <amposkanzer@...>
 

See: http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/lithuania/vitalrecs.htm#Dates

For Lithuania old dates I add 12 days, but after 28 Feb 1900 I add 13
days.

Art Poskanzer

Subject: How do you handle Julian dates in your tree?
From: "Steve Adelson" <sjadelson@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 07:15:42 -0800
X-Message-Number: 1

I'm curious... I have many relatives who were born in Lithuania with
Julian
birthdates, emigrated to the West, and have Gregorian death dates.
Almost
always, these relatives didn't bother with the calendar transition; if
their
gravestones have full dates, they list the Julian birth and Gregorian
death.

Does anyone account for the difference in their tree? I've been doing
this
for a while, translating the Julian date to Gregorian, but I'm
starting to
wonder if that's the right way to go about this. I do record the
Julian
date in the fact notes.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Steve Adelson


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania How do you handle Julian dates in your tree? #lithuania

Art Poskanzer <amposkanzer@...>
 

See: http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/lithuania/vitalrecs.htm#Dates

For Lithuania old dates I add 12 days, but after 28 Feb 1900 I add 13
days.

Art Poskanzer

Subject: How do you handle Julian dates in your tree?
From: "Steve Adelson" <sjadelson@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 07:15:42 -0800
X-Message-Number: 1

I'm curious... I have many relatives who were born in Lithuania with
Julian
birthdates, emigrated to the West, and have Gregorian death dates.
Almost
always, these relatives didn't bother with the calendar transition; if
their
gravestones have full dates, they list the Julian birth and Gregorian
death.

Does anyone account for the difference in their tree? I've been doing
this
for a while, translating the Julian date to Gregorian, but I'm
starting to
wonder if that's the right way to go about this. I do record the
Julian
date in the fact notes.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Steve Adelson

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