Date   
Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Conference Programming of interest to Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech

rodolfo miller <rmillermex@...>
 

Dear SIG´ers,

I´d love to attend.... but I can´t.

Is there any possibility that a copy of the papers
presented at the conference be donated by the authors
and included in our (excellent) web site as files so
everyone can access?

Have a great conference,
Regards

Rodolfo Miller
Cuernavaca, Mexico.

Searching: MANDL, MILLER, MÜLLER, GOTTLIEB, GLEISSNER-
Raubowitz, Wien...

--- Larry and Gloria Berkenstat Freund <glory1@...> wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16th, there will be a block of
programs presented at
the 26th IAJGS Conference of particular interest to
members of the
Austria-Czech SIG.

*8am to 9:15am - Meeting of the Austria-Czech SIG.

*11am to 12:15pm - Henry Wellisch - Theresienstadt:
The Town Hitler Gave to
the Jews

*1:45pm to 3:00pm - Manuela Wyler - Ordinary Exile:
The Fate of Austrian
Jewish Refugees in Belgium and France, 1938-1945

*3:15pm to 4:30pm - Fritz Neubauer - Genealogical
Information in Memorial
Books >from Germany and Austria

In addition, on Thursday, August 17th >from 11am to
12:15pm, Alexander Woodle
will speak about "The Old and the New: Using the
Prague Archives, Jewish
History and DNA to Establish Family Routes."

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Aufbau Indexing Project Site Cite #Austria-Czech

Alex Calzareth
 

The Aufbau Indexing Project (AIP) has been discussed mostly on GerSig
in the past few years but is also relevant for the Austria-Czech SIG.
Aufbau was a paper published by and for exiled German-speaking Jews
living around the world. Its first issue appeared in 1934. In about
1940 Aufbau began to print announcements of births, bar/bat mitzvahs,
engagements, marriages, and deaths. If your ancestors were
German-speaking, this was the paper in which they most
likely placed these important notices as the information would reach
relatives and friends now scattered around the world.

To date more than 27,000 announcements have been indexed. If you would
be interested in searching the initial results please visit the AIP
web site:

http://www.calzareth.com/aufbau/

The only caution is that the entries have not yet been proofread so there may
still be a few misspellings or dates that are incorrectly formatted or
missing. One option for searching is by place of origin. Searching for
Wien and Vienna results in about 1450 matches. Place names were not
translated so one must conduct two searches if a place has a different
name in English.

Alex Calzareth
Wantagh, N.Y.
aufbauindexingproject@...

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Visiting Theresienstadt #Austria-Czech

Pete Vanlaw <pvan@...>
 

While visiting Prague, two years ago, with my wife and son, we took a
guided tour to Theresienstadt. I had a grand uncle and aunt who perished
there, and an uncle who perished on the way there, while being
transported >from Bergen Belsen.

We travelled with a small group of about nine of in a passenger van.
Theresienstadt is about a one hour ride >from Prague. I found it a very
sobering and moving experience, yet I learned a lot at the same time. If
you haven't been there before, I highly recommend doing so with a guide.
I'm very glad we did it that way. If you're interested in seeing how it
looks now, I have pictures I'd be happy to send you off line. So, let me
know if you're interested.

Pete Vanlaw
Studio City, CA

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Vienna - Royal courts #Austria-Czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Four messages have appeared on this topic:

1. Scott Horwitz wrote:I have been looking for any sort of lists of
Jews that may have been working for the Austrian court between 1912 -
1914. THe rumor in our family is that my ggf was a geologist or
engineer for the Austrian Court and was told by and possibly helped
by a superior to get out of Austria just before WWI.>

A name would help to verify matters - and would the Court [Royal or
legal] employ geologists? I have not heard of a big panic for Jews to
get out of Vienna ***before*** WW1 - perhaps someone will let us
know. Would help have been needed to leave? I doubt it.

Could either of these be the ancestor:
HORWITZ Emil dob 2 Dec. 1869 or Gustav dob 18 Aug. 1881

2. Dora Donis-Kester wrote: <I am also looking to verify my
ancestor's work within the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. I am
particularly interested in checking around the 1764's-on. It seems
that a cousin of my grandmother was a singer in the Court.>

Again no name - there are good records and musicology researchers in
Vienna - so he/she may be known already! There were not many Jews in
Vienna in that era - but perhaps the singing took place elsewhere?

3. Andrea Steckerl wrote: <I was told as well that my grandfather was
one who worked for the court..how does one find out if that is true?>
Again no names, dates or location - they would be helpful .

4. Chana Saadia wrote: My late stepbrother was born in Vienna &
visited there about 15 yrs ago looking for family history. His mother
had told him that her father was a goldsmith to the court, & he found
a record-book which mentioned his grandfather's name. He sent me a
copy of a photo he took of the page, but it's in handwritten German &
very unclear - I don't know where it was located or what book it was
[it has a column for the name & a column for what was received]. I
can scan it & send to anyone who is interested.

I am sure goldsmiths and jewelers were commissioned to make
jewellery for the Royal entourage. That seems very feasible.

Please let us have more facts [names and dates] when you write in
with a query! I have heard about this fairy tale before which was
apparently told to Jewish children in Vienna and probably elsewhere -
namely that members of this family worked for the Royal Court.

A convenient and quick answer to children who ask: "where have we
come >from [geographically] and why did we come to Vienna?
Every child would be satisfied - after all, the Kaiser was supreme.

Celia Male [U.K.]

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Vienna - Royal courts #Austria-Czech

andrea steckerl <geneagirl64@...>
 

Hi Celia,
My grandfather was Arthur Steckerl.......my great grandfather was Ignaz
Steckerl...I was told by my father that either of these worked for the
Kaiser in some fashion.....he was not specific...he has passed so
unfortunately I cannot ask.

Sincerely,
Andrea Steckerl


From: Celia Male <celiamale@...>
1. Scott Horwitz wrote:I have been looking for any sort of lists of
Jews that may have been working for the Austrian court between 1912 -
1914. THe rumor in our family is that my ggf was a geologist or
engineer for the Austrian Court and was told by and possibly helped
by a superior to get out of Austria just before WWI.>
snip>>>>>>>>

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Stark reality of translating Hugo Gold's Bohemia & Moravia volumes #Austria-Czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Ruth Coman and I have been working steadily on the indexing of the
Hugo Gold Bohemia book and we should soon complete this task. Vera
Finberg will also be joining us.

My feeling is that this Excel file will be a very useful resource in
its own right and I will also cross-index every place/Gemeinde with
the 1793 census, wherever possible. You will be able to scan through
it quickly to see what each chapter has to offer - if anything!

After looking at the new work on the Prague Jewish Museum website:
Encyclopaedia of Jewish Communities in Bohemia and Moravia, I
seriously question how far we should go after indexing the Gold books
[inc Moravia]. The new data >from Prague is excellent but only in
Czech! It is more structured and targeted and adapted to the needs of
most of us in the 21st century than the Gold volumes and could be
very valuable to genealogists. Paul King has checked the new Pribram
chapter and finds it more valuable than the Hugo Gold "Pribram".

You have to buy the chapters. The Gold chapters are variable/patchy -
and frequently give no genealogical data of value. Some give in-depth
history, others a brief mention. Some stress the religious leaders of
the community - only a few are very detailed. Some/many are terribly
tedious and badly structured.

Even if you understand no Czech [I speak not a word, but I can get
the gist of the contents] or German - it is possible to screen the
chapter to see if there are names in there which may be of
genealogical interest.

Please look at the new data >from Prague - sample chapters on:
Brandys nad Labem, Damborice, Dobruska, Horazdovice and Pribram. Some
have interesting census data [see Damborice] and there are plenty of
names: http://www.jewishmuseum.cz/en/adokuzo.htm

We are are a genealogy group and there are some very specific
projects in Bohemia and Moravia, which looked at on a "cost/benefit
basis", will be of more value to many of us in our lifetime [eg;
continuation of the Familianten records inc. vital data >from the
Moravian archives - where we have hardly anything].

I fear the Gold project would be for our [gt] grandchildren and
indeed they may not be interested! As German is far more accessible
to most of us than Czech - it is the Czech chapter of greatest
importance which should be targeted in Bohemia and Moravia. The
"bullet point" model used by Prague for their current work could be
used - ie a precis - but then that would be anathema to the Yizkor
Project.

There are probably 1,500 pages to translate in all. If we estimate a
week/page - there are many tables and proof-reading will be a
nightmare and require experts [plenty of footnotes too] - we arrive
at a rough estimate of 30 years! This may be an overestimate but I
doubt it. The cost would be prohibitive.

Surely all aspects of this project must be discussed very carefully
before we commit ourselves to a leviathan?

Celia Male [U.K.]

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Yizkor Book Project July 2006 Report #Austria-Czech

Joyce Field
 

The Yizkor Book Project added one new book, one new entry, and 14
updates for July 2006. All new material has been flagged for easy
recognition at http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/translations.html.

New book:

-Jonava, Lithuania

New entry:

-Jalowka, Poland: Pinkas HaKehillot, Vol. VIII

Updates:

-Chelm, Poland
-Dabrowa, Poland
-Dusetos, Lithuania
-Holocaust in Belarus
-Kamen Kashirskiy, Ukraine
-Lanovtsy, Ukraine
-Lita
-Molchadz, Belarus
-Novogrudok, Belarus: this book has now been completely translated
-Orgeyev (Orhei), Moldova: this book has now been completely translated
-Sochaczew, Poland
-Sosnowiec, Poland
-The Terrible Choice: new essays on Vasily Grossman, Mosze Meryn, and
Emanuel Ringelblum
-Zloczew, Poland

We want to thank all the coordinators of yizkor book translation
projects for their perseverance and dedication. Without their
talents and work, these projects would not be done. We are grateful
to them for making the Yizkor Book Project such a valuable
genealogical tool.

Please remember that we have 29 projects listed at
http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/v_projectslist.asp?project_cat=23
that need your financial contributions to continue. There are books
from Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, for instance that need assistance.
We can now accept donations to translate individual chapters >from the
Pinkas HaKehillot volumes. You should contact me directly first to
get an estimate of the cost of the chapter you want to have
translated. Provide details of the volume and page numbers when you
write me. The translated tables of contents of the individual
volumes are at http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/translations.html,
under the heading of Regions.

Joyce Field
JewishGen VP, Data Acquisitions
jfield@...

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Vienna - Royal courts #Austria-Czech

Dora Donis <ddonis@...>
 

Hi Celia and all,

In my case, the name of the signer was Helene, Helena
or Elena KESTLER. I've looked during the late 1800s,
but found nothing. Now I'm going back to the late
1700s, since Andreas KESTLER (another relative) was
bestowed the "von" title in 1764 (Andreas Kestler was
the personal physician of Maria Theresia). Maybe the
singer also belongs to that era??????

Dora M. Donis-Kestler
ddonis@...
USA

--- andrea steckerl <geneagirl64@...> wrote:

Hi Celia,
My grandfather was Arthur Steckerl.......my great
grandfather was Ignaz
Steckerl...I was told by my father that either of
these worked for the
Kaiser in some fashion.....he was not specific...he
has passed so
unfortunately I cannot ask.

Sincerely,
Andrea Steckerl
snip>>>>>>>

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: IAJGS NY Conference Attendees - KLUGMANN/WEISS - update II #Austria-Czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

I wrote a few days ago: So now there are 25 Austria-Czech Siggers
registered and indeed there may be more! I have just received notice
of another participant - so please this is the last chance before I
send out the final list - let me know asap if you wish to be included
as an Austria-Czech Sigger list of attendees.

Welcome to our 26th participant: Judy Kloogman Weinstein [NY]
Judy is interested in KLUGMANN, KIMEL, KORNSTEIN, FEINTUCH,
BETTELHEIM, WEISZ, KAROLYI all of them in Vienna.

Judy wrote: according to the Judische Volkstimme 1 Aug 1906 her
gt-grandfather: Vienna - the teacher of religion Dr. Jakob WEISS [nb
not a rabbi] was appointed by the Ministry for Religion and Education
to full gymnasia teacher.

Judy has 13 postings in the message archives and her interesting
marriage certificate of her grandparents in Vienna [Viewmate archives
3543 and 3544] shows that her grandfather Berl KLUGMANN, born 17 Dec
1880, was the son of Wigdor KLUGMANN [a bridge builder] and Hinde nee
KIMEL, >from Monasterzyska nr Buczacz Galicia; he lived in Berggasse
14*, Vienna IX and her grandmother Regine WEISS was born in Pressburg
on 21 Dec 1879 to Jacob WEISS and Nina BETTELHEIM. They lived in
Glasergasse 17, Vienna IX. The couple married in the Stadt Tempel,
Seitenstettengasse on 8 July 1906.

Perhaps reviewing this data, we can find some more links for Judy!

Celia Male [U.K.]

Footnotes: To see all of Judy's messages enter KLOOGWEIN into the
"search" slot of the message archives [all SIGS].

Viewmate: go to http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/archive.asp and
enter the above numbers into the "archive" slot.

Sigmund Freud lived at Bergasse 19, Vienna IX. My grandmother and her
cousin also lived at Berggasse 12-18? before they married in the late
1800s! I would have to check my pile of old letters.

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech RE: Jews in the Austrian Court #Austria-Czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Last week I summarised the postings which we had received about Jews
working in/for the Austrian Court and commented that the most
feasible was the jeweller being commissioned to make items for the
Royal family. Medical personalities were not mentioned, but it is
well-known that Jewish doctors always had a prominent place in many
royal entourages and the army.

The jewellery discussion arose as a result of Chana Saadia's posting
from Israel, which said: <My late stepbrother was born in Vienna &
visited there about 15 yrs ago looking for family history. His mother
had told him that her father was a goldsmith to the court, & he found
a record-book which mentioned his grandfather's name. He sent me a
copy of a photo he took of the page, but it's in handwritten German &
very unclear - I don't know where it was located or what book it was
[it has a column for the name & a column for what was received].>

I have seen this page [but I can see no dates] and it has three names
in it: SCHMERBER [Prag]; SINGER [Wien]; TRAUTTMANSDORF

There is a column with comments ie was a letter received about
receipt of jewellery. The key to this page I believe is
TRAUTTMANSDORF - this was an ancient titled family in Austria see:
http://www.carantha.net/our_castles_part_i.htm

In the 1600s: Gen. Adam von Trautmannsdorf, was the commander of the
Habsburg troops, see: http://www.chocen-mesto.cz/e_pamatky.asp

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauttmansdorff

Furthermore, if you can read German you will see that David FANTO
[Holics 1852 - Vienna 1922] an oil magnate, was the owner of the
Palais Fanto, Vienna [now the Schoenberg Center] and once owned
Schloss Pottenbrunn but sold it in 1926 to the Trautmannsdorf family.
Josef and Helene Trauttmansdorff, members of the resistance, were
shot there by SS soldiers in the last days of the war:
http://www.burgen-austria.com/Archiv.asp?Artikel=Pottenbrunn

So perhaps that is how the legend of Chana's family and the Austrian
Royals evolved? There may be other titled Habsburgians who ordered
jewellery on other pages, but I have not seen them.

I also received a fascinating mail >from a NY Sigger whose grandfather
[or gtgrandfather] made "walking golden ducks" for the Tsar of
Russia. Thank you, Evelyne!

Family legend may often be based on fact, but here we have some
evidence to confirm it.

Celia Male [U.K.]

Footnotes: re FANTO family
http://www.schoenberg.at/2_center/palais_fanto_e.htm

The Fanto tree goes back to the late 1700s: Jakob> Abraham> Joachim>
David. There are related FANTO graves in the ZF Vienna and links to
the FANTO family in Holics on:

http://www.radixindex.com/cgi-bin/ipvm.pl?surname=fanto

Holics, now in Slovakia is very close to Goding/Hodonin in Moravia.

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Finding my BREITENFELD family after 60 years #Austria-Czech

Joseph Breitenfeld <joesax@...>
 

Dear Readers;

My name is Joseph Breitenfeld >from Australia and I would like
officially to thank Celia Male for the wonderful work and help she
has given to many of us on the Jewishgen site and on the
Austria-Czech SIG.

If it were not for Celia I would never have found my long-lost family
from Vienna. The result of this finding, is that in seven days I will
meet my brother and sister for the first time ever in Frankfurt.

Celia, you're an Angel.

Joe Breitenfeld

MODERATOR NOTE: If you've been pleased with the assistance rendered by
members of the SIG, you may wish to make a contribution to the work
of JewishGen. Please go to Jewish Gen-erosity at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech questions on Vienna cemeteries #Austria-Czech

Bob Lenk
 

I have recently received some death records >from Vienna (through the
kind efforts of another SIG member). I don't quite understand the
information about burial location in these records:

One record for Salomon KOLLISCH, age 19, death date 16 April 1871,
burial 18 April, lists the place of burial as "allg[emeiner] Platz, 21.
Reihe, No. 12." I cannot find any matching records in the online
database for the Vienna Jewish cemeteries (friedhof.ikg-wien.at) -
whether I search by name, burial date, or plot number.

A second record, for Malvine BÖHM, age 8 months, date of death: 5 May
1882, burial 7 May, and the burial place listed as "7 24 35a"
(presumably in the Zentralfriedhof, but not stated). There are two
children's burials listed above hers, with locations listed with the
same section and row, plot numbers that look like 35b and 34e. If I
look up section 7 row 24 plot 35a in the database, I find an unrelated
person buried there. There is no match for her name.

A third record for Bertha KOLLISCH, age 4, death date 20 July 1867,
burial 22 July, no information given on burial location. There is no
matching person in the cemetery database.

My questions are:

1) a) How were burials of children handled at that time?
b) Was there a specific section of the cemetery used?
c) What was the age at which children were buried as adults?

2) What is the meaning of "allg[emeiner] Platz" as a burial place?

Thank you for any help you can provide.

Bob Lenk
Greeley, Colorado, US

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Hard Labour in Christianstadt for Dynamit-Aktien Gesellschaf #Austria-Czech

HK J Breman <hkjbreman@...>
 

Dear Gersigers,

I am a new member of austriaczechsig,
My fatehr di 2 years hard labour in the war in
Christianstadt/Krzystkowice
for die Dynamit-Aktien Gesellschaft.
I would like to request everybody if they know anybody whohad
the work as hard labourer for die Dynamit-Aktien Gesellschaft
in Christianstadt/Krzystkowice,or send me
addresses of people who might give me more information.
I would be very much obliged to hear >from you.
You can send me the information to my private emaiaddress if you want.

Yours Sincerely,

H K J Breman
Zwolle,Holland
hkjbreman@...

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Count Trautmannsdorf and Lobl KAFKA of Pisek #Austria-Czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

No sooner had I written about von Trautmannsdorf two days ago that I
find the family popping up all over the place in Bohemia.

The trouble is that one has to have many sources handy to check these
references and even were we to have a complete translation of the
Hugo Gold Bohemia volume [which would be fantastic!] one needs to
have a computer-like memory to find them in the text of 735 sides.
We need a computer searchable Ur-text!

If you go through the text with a fine-toothed comb, constantly
jumping >from one thing to another, you can find links - the census of
1793 is also vital to complete the story. If we had the Bohemian
Jewish censuses of 1724 and 1783 as well as a complete list of
Bohemian familianten, we would be in clover and have one of the best
genealogical databases in existence. However I defy even Steve Morse
to convert them into a one-step search site.

In the story of the Jews of Pisek [in Czech] there is an archaic
German paragraph signed by J.M. Angermann, Hauptmann and Sigismund
Ludwig Graf von Trautmannsdorf, Hauptmann der Prachyner Kreyses [sic]
{dated 6 April 1691].

This discusses the bravery of the Jew Lobl KAFKA in exposing a
possible rebellion in the area and then there follows a para about
his being allowed to continue as the Pachter [distilling lessor] in
the area if he converted to Catholicism.

[Correspondence between Franc. Kinsky [Supreme Chancellory of
Bohemia]and and Thomas Graf Tschernin - Count of Bechinin Lazan
{p.492}].

However as I cannot understand the Czech, I do not know what the
outcome was, but I suspect he did not convert and moved on. To my
surprise I see the story repeated in Czech in slightly different form
in the towns of Mirowitz and Mirotitz {p.403}, with an additional
mention of 1621+Pisek+KAWKA+Markus KAFKA+syn.

In the 1793, census you can see quite a few KAFKA/KAWKA in the area
who could possibly be descendants of Lobl KAFKA who lived 100 years
before and we now know some probably already had the family name
KAFKA or KAWKA ***one hundred years before*** the Toleranz Patent of
1787. Indeed in 1793 there is again a prominent Jacob KAFKA in the
Royal town of Pisek [only 6 Jewish families listed!].

The article on Pisek is of course a secondary or tertiary source and
quotes Dr M. Grunwald*: Jud. Centralblatt VII 1882-1888.

Celia Male [U.K.]

Footnote: For important Max Grunwald [1871-1953] publications see:
http://www.jewishgen.org/bohmor/books.html - search for "Grunwald".

I assume this is the same as the above M. Grunwald and the dates
1882-1888 refer to a timespan, otherwise Max would have written the
article Lobl KAFKA when he was only 11 years old! Am I correct?

#
hence this Footnote;

In the 1600s: Gen. Adam von Trautmannsdorf, was the commander of the
Habsburg troops, see: http://www.chocen-mesto.cz/e_pamatky.asp

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauttmansdorff

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Researching: GEIDUSCHEK #Austria-Czech

Ellie <ellie.carson@...>
 

My family name is Geiduschek, Gajdusek. My ggf had a taxi service
(stellwagen) between Bockfliess and Vienna. My gf owned a restaurant in
Jihlava and my father and mother had a variety store in Jihlava. My parents
excaped to the States in 1940 just before I was born. Other family members
escaped to Brazil, England, and New York via Cuba. Others perished in
Theresienstadt and Auschwitz. I am at a deadend as far as finding
information past my grandparents. Obviously no one is alive to help me.
Can anyone give me tips and/or hints on how to find out anything. I have
found the grave of my ggf in Bratislava and have a picture of it. It is
written in Hebrew. The rabbi in Portland (OR) said the name Siegel was on
it - that does not make sense to me.

Anway, any help on where I can go and what I can do would be greatly
appreciated.

Ellie Carson
Monmouth, OR

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: questions on Vienna cemeteries #Austria-Czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Bob Lenk asks about various burials [and database glitches] in
Vienna:

1. <One record for Salomon KOLLISCH, age 19, death date 16 April
1871, burial 18 April, lists the place of burial as "allg[emeiner]
Platz, 21. Reihe, No. 12." I cannot find any matching records in the
online database for the Vienna Jewish cemeteries
(friedhof.ikg-wien.at) - whether I search by name, burial date, or
plot number.>

This is most likely in Wahring as the Zentralfriedhof Gate 1 was not
yet operational. The number system has changed, but you will see many
people buried in *Group* 12.

The database is not complete. Where did this specific data come from?
No-one can really comment unless we know more.

2. <A second record, for Malvine BÖHM, age 8 months, date of death: 5
May 1882, burial 7 May, and the burial place listed as "7 24 35a"
(presumably in the Zentralfriedhof, but not stated). There are two
children's burials listed above hers, with locations listed with
the same section and row, plot numbers that look like 35b and 34e.
If I look up section 7 row 24 plot 35a in the database, I find an
unrelated person buried there. There is no match for her name.>

Here are the people listed as buried between these dates:

Bellak David 17 Jahr(e) 05.05.1882 07.05.1882 ZF I. TOR 6 23A 29

Bick Rosa 48 Jahr(e) 05.05.1882 07.05.1882 ZF I. TOR 6 23A 30
Kornreich Johann 44 Jahr(e) 05.05.1882 07.05.1882 ZF I. TOR 6 22A 1


Could little Malvine have been exhumed and finally buried with
another sibling or even her grandparents/parents?

3. <Bertha KOLLISCH, age 4, death date 20 July 1867, burial 22 July,
no information given on burial location. There is no matching person
in the cemetery database.>

Again she would be buried in Wahring if she lived in Vienna.
see points 1 and 2 re re-burial.

4. <What is the meaning of "allg[emeiner] Platz" as a burial place?>
A general place - presumably a communal grave.

So here are some final comments >from my own family illustrating that
the databases are not perfect.

I recently found Ernestine {nee WOTTITZ} FISCHER - my
gt-grandfather's sister buried with her mother-in-law - but where was
husband David FISCHER born Nikolsburg 4 April 1843?]?. Well by
delving further in the actual cemetery books, I found him buried in
the same grave, but he strangely not listed on the database:

FISCHER Ernestine 81 yr 11.12.1936 14.12.1936 ZF I. TOR 49 7 37
FISCHER Sarah 87 yr 22.03.1905 24.03.1905 ZF I. TOR 49 7 37

Similarly, his sister-in-law [my gtgrandmother] Betty {nee TEDESKO}
WOTTITZ is listed in the Doblingerfriedhof with a burial date of
11.O6.1920, but she died in 1906 when she was buried in her own
grave. She was later exhumed and buried in the family vault. The
cemetery book stuck pieces of paper on the original record to
document the grave transfer, thus obscuring her actual date of death.

And a more extreme example is my gtgrandfather Albert KOHN born
Grossbock, Bohemia 30.10.1832 buried in ZF Tor 1 where he appears
like this:

KOHN Albert 19.05.1920 21.05.1920 ZENTRALFRIEDHOF I. TOR 76B 31 8

but he actually was exhumed >from Wahring where he appears *correctly*
as follows:

KOHN Albert 30.10.1832 42 yr 31.10.1874 Wahringer Freidhof 9 180

So there are a number of reasons that these errors can happen with
adults - and there is also human error in compiling the database.
The important question is: can we correct errors when we find them?

I cannot comment on the documentation of infants' and young
children's graves.

Celia Male [U.K.]

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: questions on Vienna cemeteries #Austria-Czech

Wolf-Erich Eckstein <w.eckstein@...>
 

Bob Lenk wrote:
1) a) How were burials of children handled at that time?
In general like all other - differences in documentation: mostly they are
not listed in the database

b) Was there a specific section of the cemetery used?
No, but there are some special subsections (i.g. at gate 1: 7-3-, 8-9-,
19-3- to 19-19-, 49-1-, 49-5- to 49-12-, 49a-7- to 49a-9-).
Often/mostly? children were buried to there parents.
c) What was the age at which children were buried as adults?

2) What is the meaning of "allg[emeiner] Platz" as a burial place?
Vienna burials before about May 1879 (since 1784) were on Waehring Jewish
Cemetery (sometimes also called Doeblinger Friedhof, but later there is
another nonjewish Doebling Cemetery with Jewish section) - that's
"allgemeiner Platz", "neuer allgemeiner Platz", ..., but the description of
location is different >from that in the database, which is incomplete and has
only about 30 percent of buried people - Salomon Kollisch is one of the
unlisted.

Wolf-Erich Eckstein
Vienna/AUSTRIA

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Looted art and our Sigger - AnneWebber #Austria-Czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

It is definitely worth listening to "Listen Again" - "It's my story"
broadcast last night on BBC Radio 4 [Thursday Aug 3rd] - you have one
week to listen. You can hear our Sigger, Anne Webber, Co-chairman for
the Commission for Looted Art in Europe and the story of a mysterious
picture.

Anne was a former documentary film maker and has spent the last 7
years in this job; she talks passionately about "loss" - and stresses
that people may look for objects not because they are intrinsically
valuable but because they are part of their lost lives and family
history. Even today, 3-4 enquiries/week turn up at the London office
-these include art works and books.

This programme, ironically, is about a picture returned to Berlin
recently [it had been in the Berlin art gallery since the late
1800s!]. For over 50 years, legendary reporter Charles Wheeler has
carried this tiny [unframed] portrait across continents and decades
-but who was the woman depicted and how did it come into his
possession after WWII?

You will enjoy this gem of a programme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/itsmystory/pip/dcbwn/?focuswin

Celia Male [U.K.]

Footnote: Anne is looking for any links to the family of Dr Richard
ABELES, born 22 March 1869 in Nikolsburg (Mikulov). He was unmarried
and was a dentist. On 10 July 1942, he was deported to Terezin, where
he died. He had a brother Fritz ABELES, born 26 December 1889 in
Nikolsburg, a businessman, married to Ella nee STUKHART, dob 3
November 1901); they had a daughter Gertrude (born on 21 September
1925). In July 1938, Fritz ABELES declared his departure to Brno to
the authorities [abgemeldet nach Brunn]. On 16 November 1941 he and
his family were deported >from Brno to Minsk.

You can find this tragic family on yad vashem - there are no POTS.
The gap in ages between Richard and Fritz [Friederich] appears rather
large.

There are many books awaiting restitution in Vienna. It seems from
the books that Richard was very musical and with a great literary
range too.

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: IAJGS NY Conference Attendees - update III #Austria-Czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

I am delighted to say that the list of Austria-Czech attendees
has now reached 30. I know that other A-C siggers will be present but
they will be wearing *different hats*. This is completely
understandable because of the history and scope of the Habsburg
Empire up to 1918. I will send out the complete list in the next day
or so. So here are our four latest attendees:

27. Georgia Haken of Danbury, Conn. wrote <"My interest is the large
PROPPER family who lived <in the 1840?-1880's> in Laun, Saaz,
Teplice,
Krusovice and Prague and later <1920> in Bubentsch. And as you had
kindly pointed out in the past they were somewhere else in 1820.
And I have recently added the PROBER-GOLD and ZINGER families who
were in Vienna >from the early 1900's to 1938 when they moved to the
US. The PROBER-GOLDS were transplants >from Tarnopol.

28. Fred Davis, Medfield, Mass.
Past-President, Jewish Genealogical Society of Greater Boston

29. Suzy Boehm [US] will be at the conference for part of the time.
Most likely just on Wednesday. She writes: I am still searching for
ABELES >from Postoloporty, Dolany, Scheratitz, (Vseradice in Berouna),
Kralupy and Dresden; HELLER >from Postoloporty; MORAWETZ >from Roudnice
REITLER >from Klecany; AUSTERLITZ >from Prague and Linz,Austria
GLUCK >from Vienna and Tarnopol; GEIRINGER >from Vienna
APPELFELD >from Vienna.

30. Rabbi Avrohom Marmorstein writes: I will be attending the
conference on Monday only, but I am in New York anyway and if I can
be helpful to any member, I am happy to do so. By the way, while in
NY, there is tons of useful stuff in the Leo Baeck Institute and the
JTS library.

Celia Male [U.K.]

Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: questions on Vienna cemeteries again #Austria-Czech

Wolf-Erich Eckstein <w.eckstein@...>
 

Some days ago I answered some questions by Bob Lenk about Jewish burials in
Vienna.
Some of my remarks Celia Male misunderstood - so again and more general:

Now we will find in Vienna at least 7 cemeteries with Jewish burials:

1 Rossau (now Vienna district 8), closed about 1784, completly described by
Bernhard Wachstein.

2 Waehring (now Vienna district 18), 1784-1879, in death records called
"allgemeiner Platz", sometimes supplemented with "alter" or "neuer",
sometimes also row number and grave number, sometimes only the neighbor.
Now in use is a (incomplete combined) numbering system, founded after 1900,
combining a general number >from 1 to 7816 with a group number >from 1 to 21
and a grave number (in group). This system has no row number and is
incompatible to location given in death records, but it's possible to
translate.

3 Wiener Zentralfriedhof, 1. Tor, Israelitische Abteilung (central cemetery,
gate 1, Jewish section), starting in 1879, now closed. Has groups 5b, 6, 7,
8, 19, 20, 49, 49a, 50, 51, 52, 52a, 53b and 76b with row number and grave
number. For some parts there are important remarks, like "Ehrengrab in der
Zeremonienallee", "Abteilung", "Seitenweg No ", "tuerkische Abteilung"
(Sephardic section) and so on - so there are 4 different graves for 5b-1-3:
Fischhof in "Ehrengrab in der Zeremonienallee", Weinberg and Ergas in
"Zeremonienallee", Spiegler in "Seitenweg 1", Landauer in "Seitenweg 2" and
Grossmann without remark. Or 52a-2-1: 2 different graves: Grossmann without
remark, Covo with remark "tuerkische Abteilung".

4 Wiener Zentralfriedhof, 4. Tor, also called Neuer Israelitischer Friedhof,
founded 1917, still in use, groups 1 to 22 (24)

5 Floridsdorfer Friedhof, since 1877

Two (typical) nonjewish cemeteries with Jewish burials:
6 Doeblinger Friedhof, Israelitische Abteilung, since about 1870
7 Feuerhalle Simmering (at Vienna crematory), since about 1923

Wolf-Erich Eckstein
Vienna/AUSTRIA