Topics

Trial #Poland

Rose Feldman
 

Just some thoughts. It sometimes takes me a while to see certain applications and connections.  If attachments are blocked, then those of us who also post on facebook, and other social media will have to work twice as hard. Just like the situation where the IAJGS conf Facebook page doesn't let you share to your Facebook page. So if you want to put something up for the conference, you have to copy and paste and then sometimes edit. The same with Jan Meisel Allen's notices when we feel they are relevant to our followers. IGRA uses a variety of social media to announce both activities and database releases.  We end up being a slave to social media in order for people to know we are out there.  
Yefim asked about languages. The problem with putting something in any language besides English isn't the problem of translation but that some people won't realize it is relevant to them. We have to realize the great majority of people using this JG discussion list are native English speakers and probably on the North American continent, and if non-English speakers want to ask or reply they have to do it in English. I run into the opposite. If I share an announcement in Hebrew (doesn't matter from where, and we are in Israel where Hebrew is the official language) on our facebook page, sometimes a non-Hebrew speaker asks what is written. Well, it is a problem, because we don't have the time and energy to translate other organizations' posters. And to make some of our announcements bi-lingual is very time-consuming because the best way to handle it is a pdf file. So Yeffim, thought the system handles languages, I am not sure it is wise to write in any other language but English.

Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Help us index more records at http://igra.csindexing.com

Keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general and Jewish and Israeli roots in particular with http://twitter.com/JewDataGenGirl


--
Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Rose Feldman
 

We use Slideshare (a website) for our large announcements which gives us a link for ppt.
This was the announcement of the newest release. As you can see the copy and paste leaves the sentences as they were in the announcement on the JG discussion list.

Subject: IGRA - new and updated databases on its website
From: Elena Bazes <elena@...>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 10:32:22 +0300
X-Message-Number: 3

The Israel Genealogy Research Association (IGRA) has just released new
and updated databases on its website. There are over 1,300,000 records
available in our databases. We want to thank the participating
archives and the many volunteers who have prepared these databases.
With each release we provide a variety of records to our collection.

A preview of the databases is available at
https://www.slideshare.net/igra3/new-igra-releasesjuly-2019?fbclid=3DIwAR20=Uavk6ZaPEyR1WBlYCII_LQBFrwxYR6hITho-11XUwXAiQJ-KKQTUgrg
(MODERATOR: https://tinyurl.com/yxh88day )

New Databases

Passengers on Italian Ships Landing in Palestine 1934 - 3,250 Listings
Joint Board Members 1939 - 102 Listings
Immigrants from Romania and Hungary to Palestine 1942 - 181 Listings
Czech Jews Arrive in Italy and Sweden 1945 - 699 Listings
Surviving Jewish Children in Poland 1945 - 343 Listings
Jewish Survivors in Milan 1945 - 2,383 Listings
Polish Jews Arrived in Sweden 1945 - 564 Listings
Polish Jews Arrived in Krakow 1945 - 2,753 Listings
Surviving Polish Jews (London List) 1945 - 434 Listings
Forestry Department Employees 1946-1948 - 500 Listings

Updated Databases

Tel Aviv Census, Tel Nordau and Maccabi Neighborhoods 1928 - 3,238 Listings
Voters' List Knesset Israel, Haifa, Letters Alef-Hei, Zayin-Tet, Nun-Reish 1936 -
10,753 Listings
Telephone Directory Jerusalem Letters F-L 1963- 3,199 Listings

Please note, the IGRA databases are now searchable to all registrants.
The search results page is also available to all registrants. Additional details 
regarding most databases are available only to paid IGRA members. Certain 
exceptions exist due to requests of the specific archives.

Before viewing the databases, please register for free on the IGRA website:
http://genealogy.org.il/

To view the databases, go to https://genealogy.org.il/AID/

Elena Biegel Bazes
IGRA Publicity Chair

Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Help us index more records at http://igra.csindexing.com

Keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general and Jewish and Israeli roots in particular with http://twitter.com/JewDataGenGirl


--
Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Yefim Kogan
 

Rose,  yes, if we are talking about Israelis, most can communicate in English,  but if you want to bring Jews from Eastern Europe, South America, that might be a problem.  Not all will be able to understand and write in English.

A good system should give you a choice to translate if not English...

Yefim


-----Original Message-----
From: Rose Feldman <rosef@...>
To: JewishGen@groups.io <JewishGen@groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Jul 27, 2019 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Trial

Just some thoughts. It sometimes takes me a while to see certain applications and connections.  If attachments are blocked, then those of us who also post on facebook, and other social media will have to work twice as hard. Just like the situation where the IAJGS conf Facebook page doesn't let you share to your Facebook page. So if you want to put something up for the conference, you have to copy and paste and then sometimes edit. The same with Jan Meisel Allen's notices when we feel they are relevant to our followers. IGRA uses a variety of social media to announce both activities and database releases.  We end up being a slave to social media in order for people to know we are out there.  
Yefim asked about languages. The problem with putting something in any language besides English isn't the problem of translation but that some people won't realize it is relevant to them. We have to realize the great majority of people using this JG discussion list are native English speakers and probably on the North American continent, and if non-English speakers want to ask or reply they have to do it in English. I run into the opposite. If I share an announcement in Hebrew (doesn't matter from where, and we are in Israel where Hebrew is the official language) on our facebook page, sometimes a non-Hebrew speaker asks what is written. Well, it is a problem, because we don't have the time and energy to translate other organizations' posters. And to make some of our announcements bi-lingual is very time-consuming because the best way to handle it is a pdf file. So Yeffim, thought the system handles languages, I am not sure it is wise to write in any other language but English.

Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Help us index more records at http://igra.csindexing.com

Keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general and Jewish and Israeli roots in particular with http://twitter.com/JewDataGenGirl


--
Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Rose Feldman
 

I understand Yefim, but by writing in a language other than English it might limit those who can offer help. Whenever I suggest someone write to JG I say, write in short sentences and people aren't put off by mistakes.  Even if you use a translator your best translations are when the sentences are short and not complex and long.

Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Help us index more records at http://igra.csindexing.com

Keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general and Jewish and Israeli roots in particular with http://twitter.com/JewDataGenGirl


--
Rose Feldman
Israel Genealogy Research Association
Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  
http://genealogy.org.il
http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Sally Bruckheimer
 

On the Lyrica version, people usually reply to a comment, mentioning or quoting something of what they are replying to. That is very helpful to remind us what subject or town the reply concerns. In this groups.io version, nobody seems to do that. I, for one, often don't understand what the reply is talking about.

Do people here agree with me?

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ

Dick Plotz
 

Sally, that's "Lyris", not "Lyrica".

Isn't this a function of what people are doing? I guess I'll find out soon, when I see this post. Or not; this reply is in the online interface rather than by email, because I've been testing the appearance of different forms of delivery, and I was on the plain digest.

Currently there are only four options when I edit my delivery preferences:

•Individual messages
•Full-featured digest (a listing of topics with links to read the messages in a given topic)
•Daily summary (similar to Lyris's Index format)
•Announcements only

Groups.io seems to have many delivery options available to offer. Why are they not all offered to subscribers? The overhead for doing so seems to be zero. For instance, two days ago, I think, a plain digest that looks similar to the Lyris digest was presented as an option, and now that option is missing. The plain digest is a daily digest with all the messages for the day. In another groups.io list I'm a member of, there's a plain digest option that is limited to 12 messages, like our current 12-message limit for the full-featured digest. So groups.io seems to offer a daily digest of various sorts and a 12-message digest of various sorts. If any options are to be limited, I would suggest offering only the daily digest. Moderators often schedule long posts to appear at the end of the daily digest so there are no messages after them that would be missed. That's hard to do if some people are getting digests covering overlapping sets of posts. But if the 12-message digests are sent out at the end of each day even if there's only one post waiting to be compiled, there wouldn't be much difference.

So let's see all the options, and then we can decide whether there are some that shouldn't be made available to subscribers. The default position should be that everything is available, and an option should be excluded only with good reason.

Dick

Dick Plotz
 

OK, now I have my answer. When a post on the digest is responded to,
there's no trailing quoted material. If it's on the same day (or part
of the day, if someone is on the 12-message digest), the response will
be grouped with the message it's responding to in a thread. But if
it's on a different day, Sally is correct: there's no context for
replies.

This teaches us two lessons:

1. The 12-message digest probably shouldn't be an option. A complete
daily digest affords less opportunity for mysterious disconnected
replies...though there will still be plenty of them.

2. If we don't continue to give high priority to readability, a lot
more people are not going to like what they see than the few people
whose messages have been unfairly rejected under the current system.

Dick


On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 7:26 AM Dick Plotz <Dick@...> wrote:

Sally, that's "Lyris", not "Lyrica".

Isn't this a function of what people are doing? I guess I'll find out soon, when I see this post. Or not; this reply is in the online interface rather than by email, because I've been testing the appearance of different forms of delivery, and I was on the plain digest.

Rachel Kolokoff Hopper <r-hopper@...>
 

I am wondering if the quoted original message in the reply is a feature that can be set by the admin. I agree that it is very confusing to get a response to a message and not see what the post was about. I am getting a lot of individual messages and have no idea what the original subject matter was. I do not get digest so it is happening with all forms of delivery.

-----------------------
Rachel Kolokoff Hopper
Ft. Collins. CO



On Jul 30, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Sally Bruckheimer via Groups.Io <sallybruc@...> wrote:

On the Lyrica version, people usually reply to a comment, mentioning or quoting something of what they are replying to. That is very helpful to remind us what subject or town the reply concerns. In this groups.io version, nobody seems to do that. I, for one, often don't understand what the reply is talking about.

Do people here agree with me?

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ

Marjorie Geiser
 

I se what you mean. I'm surę I'll reply from my email, and didn't see sm option to quote original. 

Can that be included in this program? 

Margie 
AZ, USA


Marjorie Geiser, RD, MBA

Dick Plotz
 

But you (and I, in my second reply) are responding to individual
posts. That will invoke whatever your e-mail client is set to, and has
nothing to do with the group interface. Sally was responding to the
digest, and in that case there's no way to provide context except by
laboriously copying and pasting from the original message, which I
would expect virtually nobody to do.

So we have two extremes.

1. Replies to the digest will virtually never include quoted material
(unless there's a setting for that in the groups.io configuration).

2. Replies to individual messages will almost always include quoted
material. For those of us on gmail, the quoted material will not be
visible as we write our response unless we ask to see it, so threads
will tend to accumulate tails, which can get very, very long.

Neither extreme is user-friendly. In the first case, most readers will
not understand most replies. In the second case, digest readers will
have to deal with long interruptions, which will make it hard to
identify the starts of new posts among all the quoted starts of old
posts. That will be much less of a problem for people who receive the
full-featured digest, and I would expect those to be most subscribers.
But for those of us who quickly scan the text digest now looking for
information or questions of interest, if we do get the option to
receive a text digest having all those tails will make our task much
harder and more time-consuming. Those who do receive the full-featured
digest will have another problem, though: many posts come in with
subject lines that don't tell readers anything about what's in their
message. Typical examples, which moderators see every day:

Subject: Help!

Subject: Family research

If digest readers have to click through to read those messages, I
predict that most of the time very, very few people will ever see
them.

My 20 years of experience moderating JewishGen lists and reading
digests leads me to some conclusions about these problems.

1. The best format for digests would be similar to the current digests
that come out of Lyris, but with the list of subject lines at the top
being live links to the start of the corresponding message. After the
list would come the posts strung together, allowing readers to either
scan subject lines and click through or scan the full list and look
for material of interest. Having only one of these options available
for any given subscriber would be a big step backward.

2. Moderators currently are able to edit subject lines freely. That
capability solves the problem of uninformative subject lines that
would otherwise hobble readers of either the current index version or
future index or full-featured versions.

3. Moderators currently are able to manage long tails by editing them
to leave only enough of the previous message to provide context for
the reply. It's one of the main things we do, and it saves the digest
from being virtually unusable, which it otherwise would be.

4. Currently, replies can be made only by e-mail, not in a web
interface (although Lyris does provide that option, which we have
never supported). For most users, that means replies come with the
message they're replying to quoted below the reply. Replies to the
digest quote the whole digest; if it's clear what message is being
responded to, the moderator can remove all the extraneous stuff if the
sender hasn't already done that. This also gives the moderator an
opportunity to repeat, in a note, the request to remove extraneous
quoted material when responding to the digest. If it's not clear, the
moderator will return the message asking the sender to include only
the relevant material.

5. Points 2-4 above require that moderators have an edit option in
addition to the approve as is or reject options, which were all that
were available in Google Groups. I haven't yet seen the moderation
interface in groups.io, so I don't know if editing is possible there.
If it's not, we're going to be stuck with digests that have either too
much or too little information, or both too much and too little at
different points. If readability is to remain a priority, there's no
way to outsource this work to an algorithm. Algorithms have not made
the work of copy editors unnecessary, and I don't expect that to
happen for a long time. Not that it hasn't been tried; I'm sure it
has. But for the most part it's not conducive to readability.

Dick



On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 11:42 AM Rachel Kolokoff Hopper
<r-hopper@...> wrote:

I am wondering if the quoted original message in the reply is a feature that can be set by the admin. I agree that it is very confusing to get a response to a message and not see what the post was about. I am getting a lot of individual messages and have no idea what the original subject matter was. I do not get digest so it is happening with all forms of delivery.

-----------------------
Rachel Kolokoff Hopper
Ft. Collins. CO
r-hopper@...



On Jul 30, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Sally Bruckheimer via Groups.Io <sallybruc@...> wrote:

On the Lyrica version, people usually reply to a comment, mentioning or quoting something of what they are replying to. That is very helpful to remind us what subject or town the reply concerns. In this groups.io version, nobody seems to do that. I, for one, often don't understand what the reply is talking about.

Hank Mishkoff
 

I get a daily digest, and when I open a discussion I see all the notes arranged in chronological order, which means that I have to scroll through all the old notes before I see the new ones. Is that by design? Is there some kind of configuration setting I can change?

Errol Genet
 

Re: Trial
From: Sally Bruckheimer
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:01:00 PDT

On the Lyrica version, people usually reply to a comment, mentioning or quoting something of what they are replying to. That is very helpful to remind us what subject or town the reply concerns. In this groups.io version, nobody seems to do that. I, for one, often don't understand what the reply is talking about.

Do people here agree with me?

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ

Absolutely YES.  Having posts organized in "Threads" or "Conversations" would create order and make following the sense of posts much easier.

Errol Genet
New Orleans, LA

Sally Bruckheimer
 

Dick,I never thought that the 'Reply' function automatically quoted what is being replied to. People have to pick what they think will help give the context, either quoting something or explaining. Often, without that, the reply makes no sense.

You will note, that the first sentence explains what I am replying about.

I have no idea what the explanation of the delivery options has to do with anything.

Sally

Sally Bruckheimer
 

Copy and paste is handy, Rachel Kolokoff Hopper. How would the program know that I am replying to a question about how to choose the context?

Sally Bruckheimer
 

Dick, Copy and Paste is laborious? Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V?  You write long letters explaining everything, and you can't do that?

Yefim Kogan
 

If we limit language to only English, that in my opinion is a big mistake.  We loose many people from Latin America, Easter Europe.

I think that better for us, English speakers to translate from Spanish or Russian, etc.

 

Yefim Kogan

JewishGen Director for Bessarabia region (former SIG)

 

 

From: JewishGen@groups.io <JewishGen@groups.io> On Behalf Of Rose Feldman
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 2:50 AM
To: JewishGen@groups.io
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Trial

 

I understand Yefim, but by writing in a language other than English it might limit those who can offer help. Whenever I suggest someone write to JG I say, write in short sentences and people aren't put off by mistakes.  Even if you use a translator your best translations are when the sentences are short and not complex and long.

 

Rose Feldman

Israel Genealogy Research Association

Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  

http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

 

Help us index more records at http://igra.csindexing.com

 

Keep up to date on archives, databases and genealogy in general and Jewish and Israeli roots in particular with http://twitter.com/JewDataGenGirl

 


--

Rose Feldman

Israel Genealogy Research Association

Winner of 2017 IAJGS Award for Volunteer of the Year  

http:/facebook.com/israelgenealogy

Lorraine Rosengarten
 

I absolutely agree with you.  

Sam Eneman
 

Friends,

I'm getting the daily digest and responding to messages via the Web interface (must be logged into Groups.io to Reply it seems). You can quote the message being replied to by clicking the "Comments" icon in the upper left corner of the message composer:



All the questions we've raised seem to point to the need for a lot of Help files re: the new interface and usability, or at least a set of tips for new users. 

Sam Eneman
ViewMate and JewishGen-erosity Wall of Honor Admins

Sally Bruckheimer
 

"I agree with you". 

This posting is the perfect reason that we need context. Obviously he agrees with what I said, since I read it. But I have said several things, and he may not agree with everything I have said.

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ

Dick Plotz
 

Thanks, Sam. This is helpful.

Is there a setting that makes that box checked as the default option? Then we wouldn't have to rely on the attention and cooperation of hundreds of participants to give context. Of course, sometimes we'd get too much context, which is one of the reasons moderators need to be able to edit out any excess. But since we almost always need that context in replies, and there's too much context only some of the time, it makes sense to have the box checked by default.

I'm still far from convinced that it would be a good idea to allow access to the web interface at all. Online forums, which this would be, are usually unmoderated and most of the time (at least when the participants aren't a small group who already know each other) degenerate into flame wars. Online forums constitute a communications channel with distinct parameters* that are different from the parameters of e-mail lists, and it's probably not a good idea to try to shoehorn one communications channel into both forms. We had that option from the start of Lyris, and rejected it with good reason. The result is likely to be something that performs suboptimally in both. Is there a setting that sends replies to posts within a digest by e-mail rather than in the online forum?

Dick

* That's "parameters", not "perimeters".

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:01 PM Sam Eneman <sam.eneman@...> wrote:
Friends,

I'm getting the daily digest and responding to messages via the Web interface (must be logged into Groups.io to Reply it seems). You can quote the message being replied to by clicking the "Comments" icon in the upper left corner of the message composer:



All the questions we've raised seem to point to the need for a lot of Help files re: the new interface and usability, or at least a set of tips for new users. 

Sam Eneman
ViewMate and JewishGen-erosity Wall of Honor Admins