Topics

"Schando" for Alexander #austria-czech


Doug Mason
 

My mother always refers to her brother Alexander (born Vienna, 1909) as
"Schando".

Am I correct in assuming this is a manipulation of the latter portion of
his name to create a term of familiarity?

Is (or was) this name "Schando" common?

Doug Mason
Melbourne
Australia


Vivian Kahn
 

Doug,

I suspect that your mother was referring to her brother as Sandor, the
Hungarian form of Alexander. Because "s" is pronounced "sh" in
Hungarian, she would have pronounced his name Shandor.

Vivian Kahn, Hungarian SIG Coordinator

My mother always refers to her brother Alexander (born Vienna, 1909) as
"Schando".

Am I correct in assuming this is a manipulation of the latter portion
of his name to create a term of familiarity?

Is (or was) this name "Schando" common?

Doug Mason
Melbourne
Australia


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:58:08 UTC, silvagen@... (Margaret
Mikulska) opined:

2005/11/29, Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:19:07 UTC, dmason@... (Doug Mason)
opined:

My mother always refers to her brother Alexander (born Vienna, 1909) as
"Schando".

Am I correct in assuming this is a manipulation of the latter portion of
his name to create a term of familiarity?

Is (or was) this name "Schando" common?
Well... I never heard it, but it sounds to me like what a small child
named Alexander might have been able to call himself.
The Hungarian given name Sandor (pronounced /shandor/ and *not* a
diminutive or child's nickname) is the Hungarian equivalent of
Alexander. In the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the influence of Hungarian on
the Viennese dialect or generally on the Austrian variant of German
can't be excluded. Or perhaps the family had relatives in Hungary?
Or maybe Austria and Hungary were at one time a single entity.

I do not know what "equivalent name" means. The name "Sandor" is
presumably the way the original Greek name "Alexander" has become
modified as it passed into Hungarian. Whether this modification was
accomplished with or without the help of small children struggling
with the multisyllabic original name, I cannot tell. Nor do I think it
matters much; this is the kind of thing that happens as words and
names move >from culture to culture.

For comparison, the same Greek "Alexander" has got into Arabic as
"Iskandar", because the first original syllable was mistaken to be the
Arabic definite article and the first two consonants have been turned
around, by either children or adults, I do not know. The point is that
"Sandor" and "Iskandar" are not "equivalents" (whatever that may be)
of "Alexander", but the result of mispronunciation of the original,
much as "Moishe" is not an "equivalent" of "Moshe", but a corrupted
pronunciation.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

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Fritz Neubauer
 

Dough wrote:

My mother always refers to her brother Alexander (born Vienna, 1909) as
"Schando".

Am I correct in assuming this is a manipulation of the latter portion of
his name to create a term of familiarity?

Is (or was) this name "Schando" common?
Are you really sure you heard correctly? It appears to me that this
wording is far too close to the German word for "shame" (Schande) to be
used as a familiar nick name. Could she possibly said "Xandl"
(pronounced something like "k-sandal" which may sound like "sh ..." at
the beginning for English ears, and the Viennese "l" at the end (very
velarized) can also sound more like an English o-sound.
The authoritative dictionary for Austrian usage, the "Oesterreichisches
W├Ârterbuch", 38th edition, 1997, has the following entry on page 694:

Xandl (maennlicher Vorname): Alexander

With kind regards

Fritz Neubauer, in North German exile >from Vienna
for the past 30 years


Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Doug Mason of Australia posted as follows:

"My mother always refers to her brother Alexander (born Vienna, 1909) as
"Schando".
Am I correct in assuming this is a manipulation of the latter portion of
his name to create a term of familiarity?
Is (or was) this name "Schando" common?"

The German secular name Alexander was associated in many European countries
(particularly where German was widely spoken) with the name
Sander/Sandor. Names associated with Sander/Sandor (e.g., Sanderlayn,
Sanderle, Senderman, etc.) and Sander/Sandor were also used as stand-alone
names as well. Thus, if a man had the German name Alexander and the name
Sander, his Legal Jewish given name (i.e., his name to be written in a Get
-- Jewish divorce contract) would be Aleksander Sander (in Hebrew
letters). Here, the name Sander is a legal "kinui" for Alexander.

The name "Schando" is undoubtedly related to the name Sandor, being either
a diminutive of Sandor, or a mistaken pronunciation of it. If the spelling
is correct in English characters, then it is a Germanic type of spelling
for a nickname.

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:19:07 UTC, dmason@... (Doug Mason)
opined:

My mother always refers to her brother Alexander (born Vienna, 1909) as
"Schando".

Am I correct in assuming this is a manipulation of the latter portion of
his name to create a term of familiarity?

Is (or was) this name "Schando" common?
Well... I never heard it, but it sounds to me like what a small child
named Alexander might have been able to call himself.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
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Edna Berkovits
 

Doug,
In Hungarian, S is pronounced as Sh, and Sandor is the Hungarian equivalent
for Alexander. Was there a Hungarian ancestry in your mother's family?

Edna Berkovits
Teaneck, NJ
researching:
BERENZ- Boenstadt & Assenheim, Ger.;
GRUNSPAN-Uhersky Ostroh,Cz & Praha & Wien;
BERKOVITS-Miskolc,Hu.

Subject:"Schando" for Alexander
From: "Doug Mason" <dmason@...>
My mother always refers to her brother Alexander (born Vienna, 1909) as
"Schando".
snip>>>>>>>>


Margaret Mikulska
 

2005/11/29, Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:19:07 UTC, dmason@... (Doug Mason)
opined:

My mother always refers to her brother Alexander (born Vienna, 1909) as
"Schando".

Am I correct in assuming this is a manipulation of the latter portion o=
f
his name to create a term of familiarity?

Is (or was) this name "Schando" common?
Well... I never heard it, but it sounds to me like what a small child
named Alexander might have been able to call himself.
The Hungarian given name Sandor (pronounced /shandor/ and *not* a
diminutive or child's nickname) is the Hungarian equivalent of
Alexander. In the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the influence of Hungarian on
the Viennese dialect or generally on the Austrian variant of German
can't be excluded. Or perhaps the family had relatives in Hungary?

-Margaret Mikulska
silvagen@...


Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

Stan Goodman < SPAM_FOILER@... > wrote:

Or maybe Austria and Hungary were at one time a single entity.
They weren't, although there were various twists and turns. They
were parts of the same empire.

For comparison, the same Greek "Alexander" has got into Arabic as
"Iskandar", because the first original syllable was mistaken to be the
Arabic definite article and the first two consonants have been turned
around, by either children or adults, I do not know. The point is that
"Sandor" and "Iskandar" are not "equivalents" (whatever that may be)
of "Alexander", but the result of mispronunciation of the original,
much as "Moishe" is not an "equivalent" of "Moshe", but a corrupted
pronunciation.
Be careful what you call corrupted. We really don't know how the
original Moshe pronounced his name, but I would guess he didn't
sound much like a 21st century Israeli. "Moishe" simply uses a
traditional Ashkenazi pronunciation system, which is no less correct
than Sephardi pronunciations, and may in some cases be closer to
the original than Modern Hebrew is.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:10:50 UTC, israel@... (Robert Israel)
opined:

Stan Goodman < SPAM_FOILER@... > wrote:

Or maybe Austria and Hungary were at one time a single entity.
They weren't, although there were various twists and turns. They
were parts of the same empire.

For comparison, the same Greek "Alexander" has got into Arabic as
"Iskandar", because the first original syllable was mistaken to be the
Arabic definite article and the first two consonants have been turned
around, by either children or adults, I do not know. The point is that
"Sandor" and "Iskandar" are not "equivalents" (whatever that may be)
of "Alexander", but the result of mispronunciation of the original,
much as "Moishe" is not an "equivalent" of "Moshe", but a corrupted
pronunciation.
Be careful what you call corrupted. We really don't know how the
original Moshe pronounced his name, but I would guess he didn't
sound much like a 21st century Israeli. "Moishe" simply uses a
traditional Ashkenazi pronunciation system, which is no less correct
than Sephardi pronunciations, and may in some cases be closer to
the original than Modern Hebrew is.
No, it is unlikely in the extreme that "Moishe" Rabeinu pronounced his
name with a diphthong vowel. Much of the "traditional Ashkenazi
pronunciation" that you mention is the result of having originated in
proximity to Medieval French and German, Indo-European languages with
their own "traditions", lacking phonemes that Semitic languages need.
The Ashkenazi pronunciation of *Resh*, for example, is more like the R
of the French-German border region than anything that occurs in any
Semitic language. To argue that one pronunciation is as authentic as
the other is an extreme example of Political Correctness.

One might as well argue that the Patriarchs (Avrum, YItzik, and
Yankel) spoke Yiddish.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is: http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form there.