Recently, Steve Hahn asked to have ViewMates #10441 and #10442 translated.
I did that and sent them to him. I could not understand one part of #10442
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=10442
The father of the child was described as follows "Jacub Hahn (zwei und
dreisig Jahre alt) lese: neun und dreisig Jahre alt" [Jacub Hahn
(32 years old) read: 39 years old].
I am confused as to why two ages are given for Jacub Hahn.

Also, can anyone explain what the word "lese" signifies here?
I thought that perhaps this birth record was stating that something
else read that he was 39, not the 32 that he stated, but then the word
should have been "liest".

By the way, although the record clearly spells the given name
"Jacub", the signature reads "Jacob".

Ralph Baer Washington, DC ursusminor@...

MODERATOR NOTE: I have also encountered several such mysteries viewing
19th century vital records >from Germany. Comments >from experts
regarding such confusing entries will be appreciated and should be a
worth while addition to our archives. MOD 1

Ralph Baer wrote:
"Recently, Steve Hahn asked to have ViewMates #10441 and #10442 translated.
I did that and sent them to him. I could not understand one part of #10442
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=10442
The father of the child was described as follows "Jacub Hahn (zwei und
dreisig Jahre alt) lese: neun und dreisig Jahre alt" [Jacub Hahn
(32 years old) read: 39 years old].
I am confused as to why two ages are given for Jacub Hahn. "

=== I guess the explanation here is a very simple one: the official filling
in the form just wrote down what the person in front of him told him - or
rather, he wrote down what he thought this person was telling him or how he
understood what he was telling him ... probably he just mistook
"neununddreissig" for "zweiunddreissig" and corrected this afterwards. Same
goes for Jacub and Jacob - both are possible and sound quite similar.

"Also, can anyone explain what the word "lese" signifies here?
I thought that perhaps this birth record was stating that something
else read that he was 39, not the 32 that he stated, but then the word
should have been "liest"."

=== "lese" is the imperative form of "lesen " (to read) .... meaning that
what is written prior to that (in this case: zweiunddreissig) is wrong and
should be read as what follows (in this case: neununddreissig). I think this
is a very careful and diligent way of correcting mistakes - much better than
crossing through or overwriting, as we have seen it in other record... This
enables anyone later on to read what has been written before.

Daniel Simon Ludwigsburg - Germany <info@...>

Jacub or Jacob is the first question in this birth record of 1857. The
solution comes >from a correct reading of the letter c. In 19th century records,
confusion can arise because of the special form of the letter c. The main part
is like the letter i, which we recognize by its dot. The c received a curved
stroke at its top right corner for a better distinction. Often it is far too
big and looks looks like the stroke over the letter u. This one is necessary to
distinguish the u >from the n and the o, which sometimes is not closed at the top.

In the discussed document, the writer of the register shows a certain
negligence, because he has the same given name as the father: Jacob.
At the end of the name Isaac, we can clearly see this long stroke.

The result: this father's name is Jacob Hahn.

The second problem arises >from a rare, personal way of correcting a mistake.
The writer first wrote the age "zwei und dreisig Jahre alt". Then he was
told that he had made a mistake. He now put these words into brackets and
introduced the correct age with the order "Lese" / Read (and forget what I wrote
before): "neun und dreisig Jahre alt". Thus it is clear that he made an official
correction. "Lese" is gramatically not correct, but this word is often used
instead of the order form "lies".

Gerhard Buck, Idstein, Germany <buckidstein@...>

Thanks to everyone who answered my question about viewmate 10442,
both via personal message and via GerSIG.

There is agreement that this was a way of correcting an error
without having to actually cross out written words. That makes sense.

As to the name Jacob or Jacub -- I really wasn't asking that question,
just mentioning the inconsistant spelling, but since it was brought up,
Stefan Rohrbacher and one private reponder state that what I thought was a
u-hook is actually part of the previous "c". That could be, but
it does look identical to the u-hook for the word "und" a few words later.
In any case, spelling was so inconsistant in the 19th Century that
it probably is not truly important.

Daniel Bing raised a question about the Hebrew signature on viewmate 10441.
I read it as "Jochanon".

I have one further question, and *** please respond privately. ***
I am not a native speaker of German. Although my parents were both bornin Germany,
they never spoke it around the house. I studied German in college for two years,
now over 40 years ago, and basically learned things by rules.
It was stated that "lese" is the imperative form of "lesen' by a couple of
reponders. Wouldn't the formal imperative, which is what I would expect to see
in a document, be "lesen Sie" and the familiar form be "lies"? Is "lese"
a dialect form of "lesen Sie"?

For comments about the imperative form of "lesen" as I said,
please respond privately. Thanks. [Ralph, if you and others reach a satisfactory
answer to this question please post the finding to the list. Thanks, MOD 1]

Ralph N. Baer Washington, DC ursusminor@...