Could a Rabbi be a liquor seller, too? #galicia


Eleanor Platt QC <axvq70@...>
 

Rashi was a wine merchant.

Eleanor

Russell A Maurer <rrmmaur@gmail.com> wrote:

<<On the tomb of a woman who died in Jodlowa (Galicia) in 1902, her
father was denoted a Rabbi.... But in the contemporaneous civil death
record... his occupation was given as "propinator", one licensed to
dispense liquor.... Has anyone else come across examples of Rabbis
with side employment, and more specifically in the liquor business?>>


Russ Maurer
 

On the tomb of a woman who died in Jodlowa (Galicia) in 1902, her
father was denoted a Rabbi with the abbreviation mem-vav-hay (morenu
ha-rav; "our teacher, the Rabbi"). But in the contemporaneous civil
death record, there was no mention of her father being a Rabbi. Rather,
his occupation was given as "propinator", one licensed to dispense
liquor, i.e., a tap-room operator. I find this involvement in the liquor
business surprising, but maybe I shouldn't; Rabbis had to put bread on
the table, too, and maybe this was a way to support himself. Has anyone
else come across examples of Rabbis with side employment, and more
specifically in the liquor business?

Russ Maurer
Pepper Pike, OH


Jules Levin
 

I suspect you are reading into this profession a century's worth of temperance
propaganda. Rashi was a vintner, and I suspect that in the USA during prohibition
many rabbis served shnapps to their congregants after davening, no questions asked
regarding origin. In any case, not only was it sometimes necessary for rabbis to
have another job, but in fact it was required by Jewish law; only Leviim were
permitted to make a living exclusively >from serving the community religiously.
Rabbis /should/ have had a profession besides Rabbi. a principle honored more
in the breach, alas.

Jules Levin

Los Angeles

Russell A Maurer rrmmaur@gmail.com wrote:
On the tomb of a woman who died in Jodlowa (Galicia) in 1902, her father was
denoted a Rabbi with the abbreviation mem-vav-hay (morenu ha-rav; "our teacher,
the Rabbi"). But in the contemporaneous civil death record, there was no mention
of her father being a Rabbi. Rather, his occupation was given as "propinator",
one licensed to dispense liquor, i.e., a tap-room operator. I find this
involvment in the liquor business surprising, but maybe I shouldn't; Rabbis had
to put bread on the table, too, and maybe this was a way to support himself.
MODERATOR NOTE: Discussion of Jewish law is outside the focus of this group. To
continue that discussion please respond privately to Jules or Russell. To continue
the discussion about occupations of our ancestors, please direct your comments to
the group if you think those comments will be of general interest.


Ira Leviton
 

Dear Cousins,

Russ Maurer asked about somebody whose grave marker has the abbreviation
mem-vav-hay, for "morenu ha-rav," standing for "our teacher, the Rabbi". But
in the civil death record said he was a liquor seller, and there was no
mention of rabbi.

My answer is that we have to imagine ourselves in Europe and 100+ years ago,
not the 21st century and where we live now. Many rabbis in Europe had
occupations - a salary >from the synagogue, if there even was one at all, was
not sufficient income to live on. As for the particular occupation that a
rabbi might have had, that depended on his skills or perhaps his family's
business. (Or his wife's family's business.) If anything, Jews in Eastern
Europe were overrepresented in the liquor business, as has been mentioned
previous messages in this group.

Additionally, the particular notation mem-vav-hay on the grave marker should
not be taken literally, and was used for many learned men who were not
rabbis; to confirm he was a rabbi, there should be some additional evidence.

Regards,

Ira

Ira Leviton
New York, N.Y.


tom
 

The short answer is probably yes.

The longer answer is that not everyone who is inscribed as "moreinu harav"
would fit our definition of "Rabbi". On many gravestones, it is simply a
matter of showing respect for the deceased, and sometimes, it means that
the man studied at yeshiva, but not necessarily that he was a pulpit Rabbi
with a congregation.

In addition, the idea that being a Rabbi was a full-time occupation and a
steady income, is a relatively modern one - many famous rabbis had other
jobs, or wealthy fathers-in-law, for income. Selling liquor was a fairly
common Jewish occupation, so it's not unlikely, and he may also have been
involved in producing or selling kosher liquor, which requires a Rabbi's
supervision.

tom klein, toronto

Russ Maurer <rrmmaur@gmail.com> wrote:

On the tomb of a woman who died in Jodlowa (Galicia) in 1902, her father was
denoted a Rabbi with the abbreviation mem-vav-hay (morenu ha-rav; "our teacher,
the Rabbi"). But in the contemporaneous civil death record, there was no
mention of her father being a Rabbi. Rather, his occupation was given as
"propinator", one licensed to dispense liquor, i.e., a tap-room operator. I
find this involvment in the liquor business surprising, but maybe I shouldn't;
Rabbis had to put bread on the table, too, and maybe this was a way to support
himself. Has anyone else come across examples of Rabbis with side employment,
and more specifically in the liquor business?


Todd Edelman <edelman@...>
 

My gg-grandfather Armin Herman Leopold Tzvi Arye HaCohen EDELMAN z"l
1845-1909 was an innkeeper in Hrabkov, Saros meyge, Magyar Kiralysag
(Kosicky Kraj, Slovenska Republika)

**But** on his matzeva it says "Here lies an enterprising man certified in
the Talmud, one of the sacred Jewish sages. An offspring of holy
Cohanim, Torah teachers, Our teacher and rabbi Rabbi Tzvi Arye HaCohen
Son of the righteous rabbi who served in the rabbinate Our teacher and
rabbi Avraham Aaron HaCohen May the memory of the righteous be of a
blessing Edelman Closed his day, a flower was plucked while still in its
prime Was taken to the sorrow of his wife Died with a good name on 28
Tishri in the year 5670 May his soul be bound in the bond of everlasting
life. Was righteous and honest, his heart was with his Creator Many
followed his light and his righteous ways Toiled and found his destiny
in the Torah, worshiped God with purity Raised his sons on the heels of
his ancestors They recognized his discipline and acquired his qualities
He will be a good advocate for his wife, sons and daughters The Cohen
will be illuminated by light to the end of days with worthiness May his
soul be bound in the bond of everlasting life."

Innkeeper in Hungarian is "kocsmaros"... barkeeper is... you guessed it,
also kocsmaros...

Here's his Geni Profile https://goo.gl/UG9K89
*original url:
https://www.geni.com/people/Armin-Herman-Leopold-Tzvi-Arye-HaCohen-Edelman/6000000012943303925

Todd Tuvia ben Avraham Aharon HaCohen v'Sima Rivka Edelman
Davis, California

Researching:
EDELMAN in Iglo/Spisska Nova Ves, Palocsa/Plavec, Hrabkov/Hrapko, Kosice/Kassa,
Olublo/Stara Lubovna, Olaszliszka, Bodrogkeresztur, Tokaj, Dubine, Hanusovce nad
Toplou, Sandal.
PETERFREUND in Szepeskortvelyes/Spisske Hrusov
WEISBERGER in Kurima, Giralt/Giraltovce, Herhely/Harhaj, Porubka (the one near
Kurima), Mala Polana, Mikova, Medzilaborce, Cleveland, Akron, Barberton.

MODERATOR NOTE: Research list truncated at six lines in accordance with JewishGen
Discussion Group guidelines.

On 04/17/2017 05:12 AM, Thomas Klein tomk@ecologicaltech.com wrote:
The short answer is probably yes.

The longer answer is that not everyone who is inscribed as "moreinu harav"
would fit our definition of "Rabbi". On many gravestones, it is simply a
matter of showing respect for the deceased, and sometimes, it means that
the man studied at yeshiva, but not necessarily that he was a pulpit Rabbi
with a congregation.

In addition, the idea that being a Rabbi was a full-time occupation and a
steady income, is a relatively modern one - many famous rabbis had other
jobs, or wealthy fathers-in-law, for income. Selling liquor was a fairly
common Jewish occupation, so it's not unlikely, and he may also have been
involved in producing or selling kosher liquor, which requires a Rabbi's
supervision.

tom klein, toronto

Russ Maurer <rrmmaur@gmail.com> wrote:
On the tomb of a woman who died in Jodlowa (Galicia) in 1902, her father was
denoted a Rabbi with the abbreviation mem-vav-hay (morenu ha-rav; "our teacher,
the Rabbi"). But in the contemporaneous civil death record, there was no
mention of her father being a Rabbi. Rather, his occupation was given as
"propinator", one licensed to dispense liquor, i.e., a tap-room operator. I
find this involvment in the liquor business surprising, but maybe I shouldn't;
Rabbis had to put bread on the table, too, and maybe this was a way to support
himself. Has anyone else come across examples of Rabbis with side employment,
and more specifically in the liquor business?
[snip]


דוד נ.א.
 

Russ Maurer wrote:

<<On the tomb of a woman who died in Jodlowa (Galicia) in 1902, her
father was denoted a rabbi with the abbreviation mem-vav-hay
(morenu ha-rav; "our teacher, the Rabbi"). But in the
contemporaneous civil death record, there was no mention of her
father being a rabbi. Rather, his occupation was given as "propinator",
one licensed to dispense liquor, i.e., a tap-room operator. I find this
involvement in the liquor business surprising, but maybe I should not;
Rabbis had to put bread on the table, too, and maybe this was a way
to support himself. Has anyone else come across examples of Rabbis
with side employment, and more specifically in the liquor business?>>

Well, I do not have specific knowledge about this occupation, but
generally about the occupations of rabbis: In most cases, the rabbi's
salary >from the community was insufficient (and sometimes does not
exist), and therefore, it was customary for the rabbi to sell certain
products, and he would receive exclusivity for this business in his
town, so that the community could allow him to make a decent living -
without paying him.

David Nesher
Israel


דוד נ.א.
 

Russ Maurer wrote:
On the tomb of a woman who died in Jodlowa (Galicia) in 1902, her father was
denoted a Rabbi with the abbreviation mem-vav-hay (morenu ha-rav; "our teacher,
the Rabbi"). But in the contemporaneous civil death record, there was no
mention of her father being a Rabbi. Rather, his occupation was given as
"propinator", one licensed to dispense liquor, i.e., a tap-room operator. I
find this involvment in the liquor business surprising, but maybe I shouldn't;
Rabbis had to put bread on the table, too, and maybe this was a way to support
himself. Has anyone else come across examples of Rabbis with side employment,
and more specifically in the liquor business?
Well, I do not have specific knowledge about this occupation, but
generally about the occupations of rabbis:
In most cases, the rabbi's salary >from the community was insufficient
(and sometimes does not exist), and therefore, it was customary for
the rabbi to sell certain products, and he would receive exclusivity
for this business in his town, so that the community Could allow him
to make a decent living - without paying him.

David Nesher
Israel