Austro-Hungarian SIG? #hungary
Schoenberg, E. Randol <SchoeRa@...>
Louis Schonfeld has allowed me to post the following query to all of you:
I and a number of others with Austro-Hungarian roots are getting a bit
dissatisfied with the German SIG. Is there any possibility that the
Hungarian SIG would be willing to expand and change to the Austro-Hungarian
SIG? I think you would immediately get a lot of new members who would
gladly defect >from the German SIG.
I have thought about this quite a bit, and it really does not make sense to
lump Austria and the Czech and Slovak lands with the Prussians, Bavarians,
Alsatians, etc. Most, if not all, of our history is tied very closely to
old Habsburg empire. I once read that by 1900, almost half of the Hungarian
Jews were descended >from refugees >from the quotas in Bohemia and Moravia.
My family is perhaps a somewhat typical example. All four grandparents were
Vienna. If you go further back two generations to my great-great
grandparents, I have two "Hungarian" branches - the Schoenbergs came from
Szecseny in Nogrod County through Pressburg to Vienna (where my grandfather
the composer Arnold Schoenberg was born). The Schwarz part of my family
came >from Pezinok (Boesing) which is now in Slovakia, but they were
Hungarian patriots (my great-great grandfather corresponded with Kossuth
Lajos and my great-grandmother's name was Ilona (what more do I have to
say?) and several branches of this family live in Budapest now). The rest
of the family (13 of 16 great-great grandparents) came >from various parts of
Bohemia and Moravia or Vienna. Most likely the Schoenbergs also came from
Moravia before they were in Szecseny.
Up to now I have only subscribed to the German SIG (Gersig), but this just
doesn't make sense. There are probably an easy 20 or so people on Gersig
who would switch to an Austro-Hungarian SIG in a heartbeat.
I know this is a big thing to ask, and I would understand if the Hungarian
SIG did not want to expand like this, but I have to ask anyway. In my view
we have too much in common to be separated.
Los Angeles, California
tel: (213) 473-2045
fax: (213) 473-2222
mod.- the Hungarian SIG belongs to all its members and therefore your thoughts, suggestions and concerns are strongly encouraged. Hopefully a consensus of opinion will emerge >from a discussion of this proposal. A decision can be made at the New York conference during our H-sig meeting. Therefore, those of you who will not be attending the conference are especially invited to submit your ideas on this matter either to the h-sig group or if you prefer anonymity you may send an e-mail to me at Lmagyar@... LS
Florence Marmor <fmarmor@...>
Seems to me that there should be an Austro-Hungarian SIG.
Florence Marmor fmarmor@... edge of Brooklyn, N.Y
Researching: LISSAUER, JONAP, BOGAR >from Hunfalu
(Huncovce, Slovakia), Szuha Kallo, Szin and
Peder, Hungary (now Slovakia), etc.
LISSAUER >from Rawa Ruska, Galicia now Ukraine
JONAP >from Felso Vadasz, Hungary
BOGAR >from Janik, (Janok, Hungary), Slovakia
RINGELHEIM, WEISENFELD, SCHERZ, GROSS >from
Manasterz and Tarnowka, Galicia
KRAUTHAMER, SPANIER >from Kolomeya, Ukraine
All the above Surnames plus LESSER >from U. S.
See our web page on Mokom Sholom Cemetery, Ozone Park, N.Y. at
Peter Garas <pgaras@...>
I am all for the change - getting double messages some of which are less than useful, is a pain
Peter Garas B.A., B.Soc Stud, MSW, MAASW
Write to me at:
pgaras@... or 31843215@...
My Work Telephone Number is: +612-62446898 My Fax Number is: +62447988
My Home Telephone Number is: +612-62942170
mod.- I assume that PG currently belongs to both the GerSig and the H-sig?
I think what you propose is a good idea.
I presently subscribe to H-Sig, but because my mothers family came originally >from Moravia (Boskovice) I joinedGer-Sig too. However there are very few messages which are of interest to me.I would be also more happy with an expanded H-SIG instead.
ervera @ njcc.com
"Schoenberg, E. Randol" wrote:
Herb Meyers <herbiem@...>
I am a bit puzzled by this issue. It seems to me that the H-SIG now
includes Austria, Czech and Slovak lands as they pertain to issues on
Hungarian ancestry. I do not think any change is needed.
To change the name to Austro-Hungarian would give the impression that
the SIG would be restricted to that topic whereas now the H-SIG includes
that as well as post Austro-Hungarian periods.
In a message dated 7/16/99 6:27:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Re- Change of name to Austro-Hungarian SIG
I agree. I would like to see the Austria-Hungary region included in the
My grandparents came >from Austria-Hungary in 1896. I have no idea what town
and would like to locate some information about Louis Bernard Schwartz and
his wife Hanna (nee Hershkowitz). Thank you.
Judy and Gary Floam <gfloam@...>
"Austria-Hungary", i.e., the Austro-Hungarian Empire, was a big place. Both
my paternal grandparents are >from Austria-Hungary; one >from Kosice, now
Slovakia which was then part of Hungary and one >from Brody, now Ukraine,
which was part of Galicia. So I belong to the H-Sig and Galicia-Sig groups.
Maybe you could find your grandfather's naturalization records.
My grandparents came >from Austria-Hungary in 1896. I have no idea what town-------------
Judy and Gary Floam
3300 Marnat Road
Baltimore, MD 21208 USofA
Dear Louis and SIG Members,
I have a couple of questions and, of course, an opinion I would like to share.
snip of message>>SchoeRa@... writes:
<< lump Austria and the Czech and Slovak lands with the Prussians, Bavarians,
I am confused by the request to change the name of H SIG. I had the
impression that our SIG 'conversations' already encompass and address,
besides other countries, AUT-HUN, CZ and Slovak, and Romania genealogy as it
relates to Greater Hungary. Isn't this our vocus? Are we being asked to get
more specific or change direction?
There is a GesherGalicia (correct name?), LitvakSIG, ROM SIG and others.
I am most happy with H SIG as it is. I think it has room for everyone with a
connection or interest in Greater Hungary.
Dolph Klein <kledolph@...>
Welcome postings >from those who have interests in Austria and Germany, but
don't change H-SIG's name ...at least for the time being.
If I have the story right, this issue began when one person expressed
dissatisfation about another SIG and claimed that at least he and 10 other
individuals were ready to join H-SIG. To paraphrase a cliche, "Show me the
articles!" In other words, let those who wish to place their postings with
H-SIG come forward. H-SIG might even elect to be proactive, but name
changing is not the way. The condition for considering a name change is
when a critical mass is reached and sustained...not the converse.
Chapel Hill, NC
Dear SIG Members -
I agree with Linda. As I understand it we have been talking about greater Hungary.
Austro-Hungary was only a certain time period.
Let's leave it the way it is.
Schoenberg, E. Randol <SchoeRa@...>
I am grateful for all the responses to my modest proposal. I presume it
will be up to the H-SIG leadership and Jewishgen to determine whether the
proposal is accepted. A few comments:
1. As it currently stands, the definitions of H-SIG and Gersig might relate
to Austrian and Czech genealogy, but neither of them really embrace those
groups. In some sense, we are currently "homeless" and are unlikely to be
able to sustain our own SIG because the Greater Hungary and Greater Germany
groups overlap somewhat with out constituency.
2. I presume that most of your research is directed toward persons who
lived before 1918. As the moderator has pointed out, this was the Austrian
Empire until the dual-monarchy was dubbed the Austro-Hungarian empire in
1867. Genealogically speaking, there is one watershed event which I think
affected everyone in the Empire, and that is the tolerance edict of Josef II
in 1781. This led to greater rights for Jews, the taking of last names,
record-keeping, migration to Vienna, etc. The revolution of 1848 and the
assumption of Franz Josef to the throne, where he would remain for almost 70
years, also bind us together.
3. Although technically most of your research concerns people >from the
Austrian or Austro-Hungarian empire, the name H-SIG implies an exclusion of
the Austrian (and Czech) portions of the empire, just as a perhaps even more
historically accurate Austrian-SIG might not be as inviting to Hungarians.
That is why I have suggested the more inclusive name "Austro-Hungarian SIG,"
which has the benefit of being an accurate description of the political name
of the region during the time that most of our research concerns.
Hungarians, Austrian, Czechs, Slovaks, Galizianers, etc. all should feel
relatively confortable with the Austro-Hungarian name.
4. I understand the fear of some of expanding your group into areas that
are of little interest to you. No doubt the vagaries of Bohemian and
Moravian Jewish record-keeping will bore some of your members. But
considering how many Hungarian Jews have roots in Bohemia and Moravia, it
seems a fair price to pay.
Thank you again for considering this proposal.
E. Randol Schoenberg
Los Angeles, California