Hello!

I have been looking at Pest Marriage records of the early 1890s. I wrote
down a sampling of some of the many apparent changes or variations of given
names listed in these records. I am not sure if these are official changes
or just second names. There are different ways they are indicated,
sometimes with the abbreviation "hely." and sometimes "mask." Sometimes
they are simply listed like this: Etelka /:Eszter:/ Sometimes they seem
to delineate Hungarian and Hebrew or Yiddish names, sometimes not. There
is one use of the word "elo"bb" regarding a surname change.

My little Hungarian phrasebook says "helyett" means "instead of." I don't
know what "mask." means. Anyone? In one record, both are used:

Mezger /:mask. Metzger:/ Be'la hely. Berna't

Following are a few dozen name pairs, just to give an idea of the variety
of possibilities.

Enjoy!
Jaki (hely. Jacqueline!)

A'braha'm mask. Sa'muel
Albert hely. A'dolf
Albert mask. Ede
A'dolf hely. A'braha'm
A'ron mask. A'rmin
A'ron mask. Adolf
Aranka hely. Hermina

Be'la hely. Benjamin
Berna't mask. Be'la
Berthold hely. Baruch
Berta hely. Borbala
Betti mask. Berta

Emilia /:mask. Minna:/
Emilia hely. Matild
Ernesztina hely. Nanette

Ferencz hely. Fu"lo"p

Gedalje mask. A'dolf
Gitel hely. Kati

Heiman m. Gyula
Hermina /:Hani:/
Hani mask. Hermina
Hirs mask. A'rmin

Igna'cz hely. Na'ta'n
Ilka hely. Regina
Ilona /:Helena:/
Irma hely. Ma'ria (twice)
Izra'el mask. Izidor
Izsa'k mask. Igna'cz (3)

Jola'n hely. Johanna
Jola'n hely. Julia (2)
Jo'zsef hely. Benjamin

Kati mask. Hani
Korne'lia hely. Kamilla

Le'ni Mask. Leono'ra
Lenke hely. Leono'ra
Lili hely. Karolina
/:Lipman:/ Lajos

Mano' hely. Mandel
Margit hely. Magdalena
Ma'ria hely. Nina
Mariem mask. Ma'ria
Ma'rkus /:Mo'r:/
Ma'rton hely. Ma'rkus
Meschi mask. Ma'ria
Miksa hely. Mo'zes
Mo'ricz mask. Berna't
Mo'zes mask. Mo'r (2)

Nina /:Mindl:/

Paulina hely. Babet.
Peszel mask. Fani

Rebeka mask. Blanka
Rebeka mask. Ro'za

Salamon mask. Samu
Samu hely. Salamon
Sa'ra Ra'hel /:Ro'za:/
Sarolta hely. Roza'lia
Scheindel Sarolta
Sza'li hely. Szere'na

Tere'z hely. Antonia

Uscher (Ascher?) mask. Adolf

Wolf mask. Vilmos

Zsigmond hely. Simon
Zsigmond mask. Lajos

Jaki Erdoes wrote:

Hello!

I have been looking at Pest Marriage records of the early 1890s. I
wrote down a sampling of some of the many apparent changes or
variations of given names listed in these records. I am not sure if
these are official changes or just second names. There are different
ways they are indicated, sometimes with the abbreviation "hely." and
sometimes "mask." Sometimes they are simply listed like this: Etelka
/:Eszter:/ Sometimes they seem to delineate Hungarian and Hebrew or
Yiddish names, sometimes not. There is one use of the word "elo"bb"
regarding a surname change.

elo"bb could mean before or former
might be used in case of Hungarisation of the names, often is the former
name in paranthesis Bleuer (Biro)

My little Hungarian phrasebook says "helyett" means "instead of." I
don't know what "mask." means. Anyone? In one record, both are used:

helyett is Instead of

Mezger /:mask. Metzger:/ Be'la hely. Berna't

For mask. and hely. , I don't think that they are official
abbreviations, but as I looked at the the list you supplied and in the
above examples, my guess would be

ma'sk. / ma'ske'p = otherwise, in another manner/way, meaning that the
name can in both form exist, or as synonim

hely. / helyett = instead of

Following are a few dozen name pairs, just to give an idea of the
variety of possibilities.

Enjoy!
Jaki (hely. Jacqueline!)

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

Jaki Erdoes wrote:

> Hello!
>
> I have been looking at Pest Marriage records of the early 1890s. I
> wrote down a sampling of some of the many apparent changes or
> variations of given names listed in these records. I am not sure if
> these are official changes or just second names. There are different
> ways they are indicated, sometimes with the abbreviation "hely." and
> sometimes "mask." Sometimes they are simply listed like this: Etelka
> /:Eszter:/ Sometimes they seem to delineate Hungarian and Hebrew or
> Yiddish names, sometimes not. There is one use of the word "elo"bb"
> regarding a surname change.

elo"bb could mean before or former
might be used in case of Hungarisation of the names, often is the former
name in paranthesis Bleuer (Biro)

> My little Hungarian phrasebook says "helyett" means "instead of." I
> don't know what "mask." means. Anyone? In one record, both are used:

helyett is Instead of

> Mezger /:mask. Metzger:/ Be'la hely. Berna't

For mask. and hely. , I don't think that they are official
abbreviations, but as I looked at the the list you supplied and in the
above examples, my guess would be

ma'sk. / ma'ske'p = otherwise, in another manner/way, meaning that the
name can in both form exist, or as synonim

hely. / helyett = instead of

> Following are a few dozen name pairs, just to give an idea of the
> variety of possibilities.
>
> Enjoy!
> Jaki (hely. Jacqueline!)
>

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

mask could be maskep=otherwise or maskor=at other
times.

Gila Miriam Chait

--- Jaki Erdoes <jaki@...> wrote: > Hello!

I have been looking at Pest Marriage records of the
early 1890s. I wrote
down a sampling of some of the many apparent changes
or variations of given
names listed in these records. I am not sure if
these are official changes
or just second names. There are different ways they
are indicated,
sometimes with the abbreviation "hely." and
sometimes "mask." Sometimes
they are simply listed like this: Etelka /:Eszter:/
Sometimes they seem
to delineate Hungarian and Hebrew or Yiddish names,
sometimes not. There
is one use of the word "elo"bb" regarding a surname
change.

My little Hungarian phrasebook says "helyett" means
"instead of." I don't
know what "mask." means. Anyone? In one record,
both are used:

Mezger /:mask. Metzger:/ Be'la hely. Berna't

<snip>

Zsigmond hely. Simon
Zsigmond mask. Lajos

I don't usually read research group postings about name equivalents
and this week I am particularly busy, but for some reason I read this
one. There down at the bottom was the above pair of equivalencies.

My father (Eliezer Yitzhak) was named for my gm's uncle Lajos who
was a high government official. So said my gm. On the other hand,
my gm's older brother said that no it was Uncle Zsigmund who was
the official. We have found the birth records for those siblings - all the
sisters, but only brother Lajos, no brother Zsigmond.

Your info here allows the possible that they were the same person.
How about that! Now all I need is to understand what Lajos has to do
with Zsigmond to begin with!

Israel Pickholtz

Rule #1 There is no rule. Name equivalency and naming overall fall
under the following pressures and/or tradition.
1. Family/Group such as Ashkenazi or Sephardic.
2. The fashion of the moment.
3. The whims, of the local rabbi.

I have seen Jewish Parish records, where every newborn - male or female
has both a gentile name given, and a Jewish Hebrew name, though many
don't at all. Some others where gentile name are totally absent. Then
also I have seen the same person being listed with different names
(most of the time with the same first letter) at different time of
their life, and in the same record.

Tonight I had to look again at the Jewish parish record up to 1895 of
Nagykanizsa. In this case for each name an equivalent is entered with
the = between the two.

Here are a few: Regina=Rifka, Wilhelm=Wolf, Leopold=Lob,
Ignatz=Isak(my grand-father's name - actually he was the third one
named thus, as the first two died in infancy), Adolf=Abraham (the name
of my grandfather's twin brother, Giselle=Gittel, Hermina=Chaia Sara.

I think this is a sufficient sampling to get the flavor and variety.

Robert Neu
--- IsraelP <zach4v6@...> wrote:

According to my phrasbook maskent means alias, so mask could be a shortcut.
iLAN kOZMA

Jaki Erdoes wrote:

Hello!

I have been looking at Pest Marriage records of the early 1890s. I
wrote down a sampling of some of the many apparent changes or
variations of given names listed in these records. I am not sure if
these are official changes or just second names. There are different
ways they are indicated, sometimes with the abbreviation "hely." and
sometimes "mask." Sometimes they are simply listed like this: Etelka
/:Eszter:/ Sometimes they seem to delineate Hungarian and Hebrew or
Yiddish names, sometimes not. There is one use of the word "elo"bb"
regarding a surname change.

My little Hungarian phrasebook says "helyett" means "instead of." I
don't know what "mask." means. Anyone? In one record, both are used:

Mezger /:mask. Metzger:/ Be'la hely. Berna't

<snip>

on 3/15/02 4:57 AM, Ilan Kozma at kozmai@... wrote:

According to my phrasbook maskent means alias, so mask could be a shortcut.
iLAN kOZMA

Jaki Erdoes wrote:

<snip>

My little Hungarian phrasebook says "helyett" means "instead of." I
don't know what "mask." means. Anyone? In one record, both are used:

Mezger /:mask. Metzger:/ Be'la hely. Berna't

<snip>

I would interpret MASKEP, OR MASKEPPEN or MASKULONBEN as in other words,
or, otherwise

Peter I. Hidas

thidas@...
peterhidas@...

http://www3.sympatico.ca/thidas
http://www.community.webshots.com/user/peterhidas

Just one additional thought. First are hely. and mask. on the same
document? If yes one would assume that the two abbreviations don't have
the same meaning. In that case hely. could be helyesen meaning
"properly" meaning in one case that the second name be "proper" one,
and the in the other case, with mask., the second one being an alias.
Robert Neu
--- "Peter I. Hidas" <thidas@...> wrote:

Robert Neu wrote:

Just one additional thought. First are hely. and mask. on the same document? If yes one would assume that the two abbreviations don't have the same meaning. In that case hely. could be helyesen meaning "properly" meaning in one case that the second name be "proper" one, and the in the other case, with mask., the second one being an alias.
Robert Neu

As my mother tongue has nothing to do with English, I depend heavily on
Hungarian-English and English-English dictionaries. Looking at the
examples, I would say that
"Be'la hely. Berna't" means helyett or instead of, as both are valid
first names
The second example is Mezger mask. Metzger is for me different ma'sk. is
ma'ske'p or otherwise Metzger is of German origin is often a surname
but is also a profession using it in Hungary it could be changed in
registry, not all officers in the registry office were experts in
spelling so surnames could change easily, or because the wearer wanted
his name easier for spelling. look at the different form of the name
Schwartz, Schwarz, Schwarc, Schwarcz all the four form appears in the
1944 census of Bekescsaba.. Alias is defined in my "The advanced
learner's Dictionary of current English"
"Alias = a name (different >from the real name) used by person, often
for dishonest purposes" also it is used by actors, artists etc. for a
better sounding as a stage name or pen-name.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

--- "Peter I. Hidas" <thidas@...> wrote:

on 3/15/02 4:57 AM, Ilan Kozma at kozmai@... wrote:

According to my phrasbook maskent means alias, so mask could be a shortcut.


ILAN kOZMA

Jaki Erdoes wrote:

<snip>

My little Hungarian phrasebook says "helyett" means "instead of."

I don't know what "mask." means. Anyone? In one record, both are used:

Mezger /:mask. Metzger:/ Be'la hely. Berna't

<snip>

I would interpret MASKEP, OR MASKEPPEN or MASKULONBEN as in other words, or, otherwise

Peter I. Hidas

In the case of Bela/Bernat I would say that the "proper name" is Bernat
and he is also called Bela.

For the second one , there is no question that the proper spelling is
Metzger, and it would seem that the transcriber seemly noted that
though the person name is Mezger it should have been Metzger.

As to spelling of Jewish names in Hungarian records, you are correct in
saying that how they were written in 19th century records depended on
the knowledge of German by either the person whose name it was and/or
the person making the entry. Spelling was not an art then, and
therefore very often the name simply reflects the "pronunciation" of
the word. In Hungarian. The "tse" sound can be written "c", "z", "cz",
or "tz".

However by 1944 the record would simply reflect the name whichever way
it was written before, hence the mask.

The variation you show for Schwarz follow the same pattern. The surname
I have Zeisler which appears also as Ceisler, Czeiszler, Czeisler.

As for Schwarz, I have also seen Svarz, Svarc and Schvarz. Read in
Hungarian they all sound the same. Also remember that many Jews spoke
only Yiddish and not German, and certainly not Hungarian when they
arrived there.

Just one word on alias. As for as I know it simply means "also known as
", and the rest is connotation and reflects common usage, usually
common with criminals, people hiding their original names, actors etc.
Robert Neu

--- Gábor Hirsch <hirsch@...> wrote:

Robert Neu wrote:

Just one additional thought. First are hely. and mask. on the same

document? If yes one would assume that the two abbreviations don't
have the same meaning. In that case hely. could be helyesen meaning
"properly" meaning in one case that the second name be "proper" one,
and the in the other case, with mask., the second one being an alias.

Robert Neu

As my mother tongue has nothing to do with English, I depend heavily
on
Hungarian-English and English-English dictionaries. Looking at the
examples, I would say that
"Be'la hely. Berna't" means helyett or instead of, as both are
valid
first names
The second example is Mezger mask. Metzger is for me different ma'sk.
is
ma'ske'p or otherwise Metzger is of German origin is often a surname

but is also a profession using it in Hungary it could be changed in
registry, not all officers in the registry office were experts in
spelling so surnames could change easily, or because the wearer
wanted
his name easier for spelling. look at the different form of the name
Schwartz, Schwarz, Schwarc, Schwarcz all the four form appears in the

1944 census of Bekescsaba.. Alias is defined in my "The advanced
learner's Dictionary of current English"
"Alias = a name (different >from the real name) used by person, often

for dishonest purposes" also it is used by actors, artists etc. for a

better sounding as a stage name or pen-name.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

<snip>

Robert Neu wrote:

In the case of Bela/Bernat I would say that the "proper name" is Bernat and he is also called Bela.

For the second one , there is no question that the proper spelling is Metzger, and it would seem that the transcriber seemly noted that though the person name is Mezger it should have been Metzger.

I am not quite convinced, Metzger is the proper spelling for the
profession of butcher but a surname don't have to follow this rules, for
easier pronunciation, to make writing easier etc. As I am living in a
German speaking country, near a moderate sized city, so I took the phone
book and looked at the name Metzger, there were 67 listed and also a
remark "siehe auch Mezger" under Mezger were 7 listed, so it is even an
accepted name in Switzerland. I also have a polish friend, his name is
J. Fersztand, the polish way of writing Verstand. Also two brothers by
some error in the registry one is F. Kis the other S. Kiss in their
documents in Switzerland this names were taken over. Correct spelling
is kis for little, small. Two prominent Jews were also named Kiss,
Jozsef 1843-1921

As for Schwarz, I have also seen Svarz, Svarc and Schvarz. Read in Hungarian they all sound the same. Also remember that many Jews spoke only Yiddish and not German, and certainly not Hungarian when they arrived there.

This is a different issue, Yiddish was not so popular in the middle land
of Hungary as it was in Transylvania, Slovakia, Karpat Ukraina part were
the majority belonged to the Orthodox or Hassid surroundings. I don't
know if my grandmother (mother side) spoke Yiddish but none of their
children and she came >from an orthodox family, Kohn, Kohut, Bleier,
Bleuer. The same is true >from fathers side were my ggf was Roshe Kol in
O:cso:d. I asked some formerly orthodox survivors of Bekescsaba, nor did
they spoke Yiddish. The Hungarian Jews were very much assimilated,
foreign language was important, so my parents engaged an austrian
Kindermaedchen (until the Anschluss) to teach me German which spoke more
or less both my parents, but not Yiddish.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch