Death Certificate Translation Request #hungary


Jerry Zeisler <jzeisler@...>
 

Hello All,
I just received a death certificate for my g-gm Irma Zeisler who died in
1906 in Danville, Pennsylvania. The death certificate gives her father's
place of birth as "Ga'cs, Hungary," and on the line for her mother's maiden
name is what appears to be "Bessa'nyi." The apostrophies are as written in
both names. Can someone please help me to decipher them?

A second question would be is that her surname at birth was LOWY, but she
seems to have changed it to LOERY and later LORY. Is there a relationship
between the names?

Thanks!

Sincerely,
Jerry Zeisler
Leesburg, Virginia USA
Searching in Hungary:
ZEISLER, WEINER, UNGAR, FISCHER, GROEDEL, LONYAY, LOWY, ECSEDI, ERNST
Towns: Diosgyor, Eger, Sajo-Kazinc, Szolnok, Arad, Gyongyos, Szentes, Vacs,
Budapest, Maramaros-sighet

Moderator VK: If it's possible that your ggm's father was >from an area now in Romania "Ga'cs" might be an abbreviaion for Galacz in Fogaras or Galacz in Hunyad. "Bessa'nyi" could be an Anglicized spelling of Bessane, the wife of Bessa. Wild guesses but this might give you some ideas.


Peter I. Hidas <thidas@...>
 

on 9/17/03 8:44 PM, Jerry Zeisler at jzeisler@email.com wrote:

Hello All,
I just received a death certificate for my g-gm Irma Zeisler who died in
1906 in Danville, Pennsylvania. The death certificate gives her father's
place of birth as "Ga'cs, Hungary,"
G=E1cs was a small village outside the town of Losonc (today Lucenec), Nograd
County, northeast of Budapest.

Dr. P.I.Hidas

thidas@sympatico.ca
peterhidas@yahoo.com

http://community.webshots.com/user/peterhidas/
http://www3.sympatico.ca/thidas/Hungarian-history/
http://www.geocities.com/peterhidas


Robert Friedman <vze2sv8z@...>
 

In response to Jerry Zeisler's query, Moderator VK wrote: =20
"Ga'cs" might be an abbreviaion for Galacz in Fogaras or Galacz in =
Hunyad. =20
"Bessa'nyi" could be an Anglicized spelling of Bessane, the wife of =
Bessa.

There's a simpler answer to the first question. Ga'cs was a district
seat just northeast of Losonc (Lucenec) in No'gra'd county, and is
currently Halic, Slovakia.

Regarding the surname, the suffixes -i and -y indicate geographic
origin, i.e. Bessa'nyi =3D >from Bessa'ny. In this case the closest
match I could find is Besany, aka Bezsa'n, formerly in Hunyad county,
De'va district, currently Bejan, Romania. There are numerous towns
named Besenyo' or Bessenyo', and other similar names are Besenyo'd and
Besnyo'. =20

In Hungarian, Besenyo' means Pecheneg, "a nomadic Turkic people who
occupied the steppes north of the Black Sea (6th=9612th century) and by
the 10th century were in control of the lands between the Don and
lower Danube rivers (after having driven the Hungarians out)"[source:
Britannica Online].

As to Lowy becoming Loery and then Lory, the Hungarian surname Lo"wy
is equivalent to Loewy (i.e. Levy). Loery/Lory may have been chosen
to give the name a French or Romance character.=20

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com

Moderator VK: Bob's erudite explanation sounds much better than my speculation!


Stephen Casey <caseydanhan@...>
 

Jerry,
there is a place in Szatmar-Szabolcs County, in Eastern H.
Check it in Mapquest, one of the best site on the Net.Absolutely impossible
that it is the "abbreviation" of anything, like Galacz.
Bessányi is a funny Hungarian name, but to be "..né", meaning in Hungarian:
"the wife of..." also it is far fetching. Could be Bessenyei, also family
name.
Regards Stephen
caseydanhan@hotmail.com

From: "Jerry Zeisler" <jzeisler@email.com>
Reply-To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Subject: [h-sig] Death Certificate Translation Request
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:44:18 -0400

Hello All,
I just received a death certificate for my g-gm Irma Zeisler who died in
1906 in Danville, Pennsylvania. The death certificate gives her father's
place of birth as "Ga'cs, Hungary," and on the line for her mother's maiden
name is what appears to be "Bessa'nyi." The apostrophies are as written in
both names. Can someone please help me to decipher them?

A second question would be is that her surname at birth was LOWY, but she
seems to have changed it to LOERY and later LORY. Is there a relationship
between the names?

Thanks!

Sincerely,
Jerry Zeisler
Leesburg, Virginia USA
Searching in Hungary:
ZEISLER, WEINER, UNGAR, FISCHER, GROEDEL, LONYAY, LOWY, ECSEDI, ERNST
Towns: Diosgyor, Eger, Sajo-Kazinc, Szolnok, Arad, Gyongyos, Szentes, Vacs,
Budapest, Maramaros-sighet


Jerry Zeisler <jzeisler@...>
 

Thank you Bob and Vivian and all the others for your replies, although =
I'm
still quite confused regarding the Bessa'nyi issue. Here's why.

As you recall in my original message, my g-gf Rabbi Joseph ZEISLER, =
entered
the name Bossa'nyi into the "Maiden Name of Mother" field on the death
certificate of his wife, Irma LORY ZEISLER. I know >from obtaining her
Budapest birth record that her mother's maiden name was Nina HERTZFELD. =
In
the following field for the mother's birthplace, he entered "Budapest." =
So
why would Joseph have entered two locations? Just to clarify the issue =
the
death records appears as such (my comments are in parenthesis ())

Deceased: Irma ZEISLER
Birthplace: Budapest (correct)
Name of Father: Ignatz LO'ERY (LOWY)
Birthplace of Father: Ga'cs, Hungary
Maiden Name of Mother: Bossa'nyi (definitely an o after the B)(mother's
maiden name was HERTZFELD)
Birthplace of Mother: Budapest, Hungary (unverified)

So I would believe that the field containing the Maiden Name of Mother =
must
be a name and not a location since the location was specified in the =
field
below. But the name doesn't make sense since we know that it is not her
mother's name. So confusion reigns.

There is one possibility that my 18 year-old daughter came up with. We =
know
that Nina HERTZFELD died before her daughter, Irma, married Joseph in =
1879.
I'm wondering if the name Bessa'nyi could be that of a second wife of =
Ignatz
LOWY, Irma's stepmother?=20

By the way, for those of you who are interested, Nina HERTZFELD and =
Ignatz
LOWY were the grandparents of Baroness Melanie GROEDEL, wife of Hermann.

I'm open for more opinions and suggestions. If anyone thinks that it =
would
be beneficial, I can post the death certificate on ViewMate. This one is
really strange.

Sincerely,
Jerry Zeisler
Leesburg, Virginia USA
Searching in Hungary:
ZEISLER, WEINER, UNGAR, FISCHER, GROEDEL, LONYAY, LOWY, ECSEDI, ERNST
Towns: Diosgyor, Eger, Sajo-Kazinc, Szolnok, Arad, Gyongyos, Szentes, =
Vacs,
Budapest, Maramaros-sighet

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Friedman [mailto:vze2sv8z@verizon.net]=20
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:14 PM
To: H-SIG
Subject: [h-sig] Re: Death Certificate Translation Request


In response to Jerry Zeisler's query, Moderator VK wrote: =20
"Ga'cs" might be an abbreviaion for Galacz in Fogaras or Galacz in =20
Hunyad.
"Bessa'nyi" could be an Anglicized spelling of Bessane, the wife of =
Bessa.

There's a simpler answer to the first question. Ga'cs was a district =
seat
just northeast of Losonc (Lucenec) in No'gra'd county, and is currently
Halic, Slovakia.

Regarding the surname, the suffixes -i and -y indicate geographic =
origin,
i.e. Bessa'nyi =3D >from Bessa'ny. In this case the closest match I =
could find
is Besany, aka Bezsa'n, formerly in Hunyad county, De'va district, =
currently
Bejan, Romania. There are numerous towns named Besenyo' or Bessenyo', =
and
other similar names are Besenyo'd and Besnyo'. =20

In Hungarian, Besenyo' means Pecheneg, "a nomadic Turkic people who =
occupied
the steppes north of the Black Sea (6th-12th century) and by the 10th
century were in control of the lands between the Don and lower Danube =
rivers
(after having driven the Hungarians out)"[source: Britannica Online].

As to Lowy becoming Loery and then Lory, the Hungarian surname Lo"wy is
equivalent to Loewy (i.e. Levy). Loery/Lory may have been chosen to =
give
the name a French or Romance character.=20

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com

Moderator VK: Bob's erudite explanation sounds much better than my
speculation!


Robert Neu
 

Going back to Hungarian history and the Besenyok (Pecheneg), yes
eventually they were defeated and a remnant asked to settle in Hungary,
hence the name to the area where they settled.
Robert
--- Robert Friedman <vze2sv8z@verizon.net> wrote:

In response to Jerry Zeisler's query, Moderator VK wrote:
"Ga'cs" might be an abbreviaion for Galacz in Fogaras or Galacz in
Hunyad.
"Bessa'nyi" could be an Anglicized spelling of Bessane, the wife of
Bessa.

There's a simpler answer to the first question. Ga'cs was a district
seat just northeast of Losonc (Lucenec) in No'gra'd county, and is
currently Halic, Slovakia.

Regarding the surname, the suffixes -i and -y indicate geographic
origin, i.e. Bessa'nyi = >from Bessa'ny. In this case the closest
match I could find is Besany, aka Bezsa'n, formerly in Hunyad county,
De'va district, currently Bejan, Romania. There are numerous towns
named Besenyo' or Bessenyo', and other similar names are Besenyo'd
and
Besnyo'.

In Hungarian, Besenyo' means Pecheneg, "a nomadic Turkic people who
occupied the steppes north of the Black Sea (6th–12th century) and by
the 10th century were in control of the lands between the Don and
lower Danube rivers (after having driven the Hungarians out)"[source:
Britannica Online].

As to Lowy becoming Loery and then Lory, the Hungarian surname Lo"wy
is equivalent to Loewy (i.e. Levy). Loery/Lory may have been chosen
to give the name a French or Romance character.

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com


Robert Friedman <vze2sv8z@...>
 

What a difference a letter makes. Bossa'ny was in Nyitra county, and
is now Bosany, Slovakia. Whether this implies a second marriage, or a
name change (Magyarization) >from Hertzfeld, is a subject for further
investigation.

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com

(On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:23:19 -0400, "Jerry Zeisler"
<jzeisler@email.com> wrote:

Thank you Bob and Vivian and all the others for your replies, although =
I'm
still quite confused regarding the Bessa'nyi issue. Here's why.

As you recall in my original message, my g-gf Rabbi Joseph ZEISLER, =
entered
the name Bossa'nyi into the "Maiden Name of Mother" field on the death
certificate of his wife, Irma LORY ZEISLER. I know >from obtaining her
Budapest birth record that her mother's maiden name was Nina HERTZFELD. =
In
the following field for the mother's birthplace, he entered "Budapest." =
So
why would Joseph have entered two locations? Just to clarify the issue =
the
death records appears as such (my comments are in parenthesis ())

Deceased: Irma ZEISLER
Birthplace: Budapest (correct)
Name of Father: Ignatz LO'ERY (LOWY)
Birthplace of Father: Ga'cs, Hungary
Maiden Name of Mother: Bossa'nyi (definitely an o after the B)(mother's
maiden name was HERTZFELD)
Birthplace of Mother: Budapest, Hungary (unverified)

So I would believe that the field containing the Maiden Name of Mother =
must
be a name and not a location since the location was specified in the =
field
below. But the name doesn't make sense since we know that it is not her
mother's name. So confusion reigns.

There is one possibility that my 18 year-old daughter came up with. We =
know
that Nina HERTZFELD died before her daughter, Irma, married Joseph in =
1879.
I'm wondering if the name Bessa'nyi could be that of a second wife of =
Ignatz
LOWY, Irma's stepmother?=20

By the way, for those of you who are interested, Nina HERTZFELD and =
Ignatz
LOWY were the grandparents of Baroness Melanie GROEDEL, wife of Hermann.

I'm open for more opinions and suggestions. If anyone thinks that it =
would
be beneficial, I can post the death certificate on ViewMate. This one is
really strange.

Sincerely,
Jerry Zeisler
Leesburg, Virginia USA


Gábor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

We are discussing about diacritical marks what I believe are the
(Hungarian) accents. Peter Hidas demonstrated us,
in his contribution that they are possible to generate even with I
believe US characterset and the most important - in my eyes at least -
to transmit it through Jewishgen, which accepts only plain ASCII
characters. It woulde be interesting - even if not strictly a
genealigical problem - how can we making use of this feature. It would
improve sometimes the understanding, commenting and guessing correctly
written names and places.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

Peter I. Hidas schrieb:

on 9/17/03 8:44 PM, Jerry Zeisler at jzeisler@email.com wrote

Gács was a small village outside the town of Losonc (today Lucenec), Nograd County, northeast of Budapest.

Dr. P.I.Hidas