Join the Discussion!< #hungary


MTB <71431.1612@...>
 

I have just read with interest the posts by Gabor Hirsch and our dedicate=
d
moderator. Vivian Kahn.

H-Sig is a marvelous group and resource. However, I have sent few emails=

in recent years (back to the time when Louis Schoenfeld was our moderator=
)
for one reason: the hostile, misinformed rejoinders that two of my posts
received made it clear that my contributions were unwelcome. As I recall=
,
the negative reactions were not posted by regular posters, but seemed to
"come out of the woodwork" >from nowhere. You can read the correspondence=

online at our H-Sig Archived messages and judge for yourself.

In one post, I replied to someone's question about the origin of the male=

first name of 'Kemel' or 'Kamel', as I knew that the name is common in
Turkey. The immediate reaction was that Turkey =Muslim =bad for Jews =
impossible as a source for a Jewish name, and beneath contempt. These
reactors were apparently unaware that Jews flocked to the Ottoman Empire,
including Turkey and the north African countries, as far back as their
expulsion >from Spain. Their reason was that Jews were treated so much
better by Muslims than by Christians.

In my other email, I added a few sentences to the thread about Tama's
Stark's contribution to Hungarian Holocaust history. Stark is a
demographic historian in Budapest. I stated up front that he is a friend
of mine, as well as a professional colleague. I have read his published
materials for years and I thoroughly know his work. The context of the
discussion thread was how to determine the number of Hungary's Jews who
died in the Holocaust, based on the available written records. Professor
Stark is a specialist in this field and is well respected by his
colleagues. As a result, he spent a 10-month fellowship at the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum. He spent three research trips in Jerusalem on
grants and has work published by Yad Vashem. He was sponsored for a
Fulbright fellowship in New York City by Professor R. Braham, the undoubted
father of Hungarian Jewish history (unfortunately, Stark was unable to take
the fellowship at that time). The reactions to this post of mine suggested
that Professor Stark was a 'revisionist historian', that is, that he and
his work denied the Holocaust in Hungary, that no one should try to count
the victims since the rabbis estimate that many thousands more died than
the Nazi and Hungarian Green Arrow records show.

While discussion and responses based on evidence are welcome, reactions
with no basis in fact or sources are not helpful to anyone. I should add
that no H-Sigger chimed in to discourage the negative comments. Therefore,
I rarely contribute to the whole list these days, preferring to reply
privately to individuals.

Sincerely,
Maureen Tighe-Brown


George Farkas <gfarkas@...>
 

I am not a frequent poster these days, but Maureen, let me say that I
find your discussion as illustrated below very interesting. I fully support
and look forward to reading more >from you in the near future.

I also like to eavesdrop on genealogical conversations because even
if it does not concern my families, I derive hints on what I should do,
even if often I do not. I find listening to others very helpful.

I do agree that the requirement to send submissions without accents
is burdensome, not so much for the sender. But for the reader. My
Hungarian is not good enough to infer the accents in unaccented text
nor to understand >from accents put not in their proper place. But I do
understand that JewishGen is not rich enough yet to change their
systems.

george


At 21/07/2004 01:33 PM, MTB sent the following message:

I have just read with interest the posts by Gabor Hirsch and our dedicated
moderator. Vivian Kahn.

H-Sig is a marvelous group and resource. However, I have sent few emails
in recent years (back to the time when Louis Schoenfeld was our moderator)
for one reason: the hostile, misinformed rejoinders that two of my posts
received made it clear that my contributions were unwelcome. As I recall,
the negative reactions were not posted by regular posters, but seemed to
"come out of the woodwork" >from nowhere. You can read the correspondence
online at our H-Sig Archived messages and judge for yourself.

In one post, I replied to someone's question about the origin of the male
first name of 'Kemel' or 'Kamel', as I knew that the name is common in
Turkey. The immediate reaction was that Turkey slim =BAd for Jews=20
impossible as a source for a Jewish name, and beneath contempt. These
reactors were apparently unaware that Jews flocked to the Ottoman Empire,
including Turkey and the north African countries, as far back as their
expulsion >from Spain. Their reason was that Jews were treated so much
better by Muslims than by Christians.

In my other email, I added a few sentences to the thread about Tama's
Stark's contribution to Hungarian Holocaust history. Stark is a
demographic historian in Budapest. I stated up front that he is a friend
of mine, as well as a professional colleague. I have read his published
materials for years and I thoroughly know his work. The context of the
discussion thread was how to determine the number of Hungary's Jews who
died in the Holocaust, based on the available written records. Professor
Stark is a specialist in this field and is well respected by his
colleagues. As a result, he spent a 10-month fellowship at the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum. He spent three research trips in Jerusalem on
grants and has work published by Yad Vashem. He was sponsored for a
Fulbright fellowship in New York City by Professor R. Braham, the undoubted
father of Hungarian Jewish history (unfortunately, Stark was unable to take
the fellowship at that time). The reactions to this post of mine suggested
that Professor Stark was a 'revisionist historian', that is, that he and
his work denied the Holocaust in Hungary, that no one should try to count
the victims since the rabbis estimate that many thousands more died than
the Nazi and Hungarian Green Arrow records show.

While discussion and responses based on evidence are welcome, reactions
with no basis in fact or sources are not helpful to anyone. I should add
that no H-Sigger chimed in to discourage the negative comments. Therefore,
I rarely contribute to the whole list these days, preferring to reply
privately to individuals.

Sincerely,
Maureen Tighe-Brown


Peter I.Hidas <thidas@...>
 

On Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004, at 13:33 Canada/Eastern, MTB wrote:

In my other email, I added a few sentences to the thread about Tama's
Stark's contribution to Hungarian Holocaust history. Stark is a
demographic historian in Budapest. I stated up front that he is a
friend
of mine, as well as a professional colleague. I have read his
published
materials for years and I thoroughly know his work. The context of the
discussion thread was how to determine the number of Hungary's Jews who
died in the Holocaust, based on the available written records.
Professor
Stark is a specialist in this field and is well respected by his
colleagues.
Stark's numbers on the number of Hungarian Holocaust victims are not
generally accepted by Hungarian historians. He underestimates the
number of victims. Karsai, Sipos and other specialists are critical of
his conclusions.

As a result, he spent a 10-month fellowship at the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Museum. He spent three research trips in Jerusalem
on
grants and has work published by Yad Vashem. He was sponsored for a
Fulbright fellowship in New York City by Professor R. Braham, the
undoubted
father of Hungarian Jewish history (unfortunately, Stark was unable to
take
the fellowship at that time).
Prof. Braham is not a historian but a political scientist. His great
knowledge and hard work is admired by all but his methodology has lead
him often to conclusions unacceptable my Hungarian historians.

The reactions to this post of mine suggested
that Professor Stark was a 'revisionist historian', that is, that he
and
his work denied the Holocaust in Hungary, that no one should try to
count
the victims since the rabbis estimate that many thousands more died
than
the Nazi and Hungarian Green Arrow records show.
Stark is not a revisionist, however, lately he revised his own figures
upwards. You are not quoting the rabbi's full statement, but it seems
that he supported Stark original underestimation.

Peter I. Hidas
historian

www3.sympatico.ca/thidas
peterhidas@yahoo.com

Moderator: Unless we receive substantial expressions of interest >from H-SIG subscribers, it does not appear either appropriate or productive to continue this debate.


Marian Brown
 

What a shame, Maureen. I have always appreciated your intelligent and
informed comments on H-Sig and miss them.

Marian Brown
Cincinnati, OH

MTB wrote:

I have just read with interest the posts by Gabor Hirsch and our dedicated
moderator. Vivian Kahn.
<snip>


BruceKitty@...
 

To Maureen Tighe-Brown,
I have missed reading your helpful and informative contributions. I wish
you would not permit a few poorly informed "nay sayers" to deprive the rest of us of
your knowldege and insights.
Kitty Sauber NY


Sheldon Pivnik <sipivnik@...>
 

For Maureen T Brown,

I too have always enjoyed your helpful & thoughtful comments and have been
a "Lurker" for 4 Yrs. Please don"t allow yourself to accept slights as
anything personal. You are one of the people I read who make my membership
worthwhile.

Carole Pivnik, Miami, Fl.

Researching: SOLOMON---Vienna,, Budapest,Galaz-Romania
GRITCZER ---Krakow
1876,Kezmarok,Huncovce(Hunfalu)Slovakia,Upper East Side, NYC,
MORRISON--Md,- Galuz, Romania =

PIVNIK, Saul-Minsk, Russia