Lists and Miskolc #hungary


Gábor Hirsch <g_hirsch@...>
 

I believe it is not necessarily a Hungarian custom that married women carry the name of their husband and the children too. Nowadays in Switzerland you can decide to keep even in marriage your name, in official papers you carry a double name husband-wife or wife husband, but whether it clarifies the thing or not I can't say. May be one - I can't say unusual or not - but in Hungarian my wife would be called Hirsch Gaborne' in Switzerland she is called Margrit Hirsch, I don't know if it would help to much >from genealogical view, but I am no expert.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch


-------- Original-Nachricht --------

Datum: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:50:04 +0200
Von: "Katz, Itzik" <Itzik.Katz@kla-tencor.com>
An: "Gábor Hirsch" <g_hirsch@gmx.ch>, "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Betreff: RE: Re:[h-sig] RE: Lists and Miskolc
Although I was born and raised in Israel I lived in a small village that
was founded by Holocaust survivors >from Hungary. Therefore all the day to
day activities in the village were carried out in Hungarian. My parents
talked Hungarian at home and this is how I picked a little bit of the language.

Since most of the village residents were Hungarian, we, the children, only
knew most of the women by their private and husband names. For example
Miriam, Ede's wife was called by all of us as Ede Miriam. This came also to
distinguish her >from another Miriam who was married to a Jonah. The later one
was named Jonah Miriam.

I believe this is all coming >from the dominant Patriarchal element in the
Hungarian culture. Men were considered as more important then women. Women
got their position in society based on what husband they were married to.
And this cultural aspect is reflected in the naming convention and
population records, which is, as Hirsch said, very unfortunate to genealogists.

Isaac Katz
Israel


Katz, Itzik <Itzik.Katz@...>
 

Although I was born and raised in Israel I lived in a small village that =
was founded by Holocaust survivors >from Hungary. Therefore all the day =
to day activities in the village were carried out in Hungarian. My =
parents talked Hungarian at home and this is how I picked a little bit =
of the language.

Since most of the village residents were Hungarian, we, the children, =
only knew most of the women by their private and husband names. For =
example Miriam, Ede's wife was called by all of us as Ede Miriam. This =
came also to distinguish her >from another Miriam who was married to a =
Jonah. The later one was named Jonah Miriam.=20

I believe this is all coming >from the dominant Patriarchal element in =
the Hungarian culture. Men were considered as more important then women. =
Women got their position in society based on what husband they were =
married to. And this cultural aspect is reflected in the naming =
convention and population records, which is, as Hirsch said, very =
unfortunate to genealogists.=20

Isaac Katz
Israel

-----Original Message-----
From: "G=E1bor Hirsch" [mailto:g_hirsch@gmx.ch]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 5:33 PM
To: H-SIG
Subject: Re: Re:[h-sig] RE: Lists and Miskolc

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is may be a drawback >from genealogical sight, that married women are =
listed with their husbands name, but this was the only name I knew my =
neighbors, my acquaintances. In the "Nevek" book >from KZ Stutthof the =
women were listed according their maiden names, so my cousin second =
grade, Biro Eva was separated on the list >from her mother Holczer Ilona, =
I knew her only as Ilonka neni or Biro Emilne, so it was only by chance =
that after finding Eva I looked for her mother too. I found this =
disturbing.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch
Switzerland


-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 03:39:15 -0400
Von: tom <tomk@ecologicaltech.com>
An: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Betreff: Re:[h-sig] RE: Lists and Miskolc
http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll?jg~jgsys~sigspop
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
one of the drawbacks of the "hungarian jewish survivors listed in a
hungarian periodical" list seems to be that married women are listed =
in=20
the customary hungarian fashion as "wife of" and their husband's name, =
but the transcription includes neither their given nor maiden names.
=20
once again, it helps to experiment a bit with the search function: =
there
are 116 hits for exactly ROSENBERG, but none of them have a given name =
of
ilona. however, there are only 4 records for PINTER, including one =
for
"PINTE'R, Dr. Be'lane', born 1898, place of birth not specified, =
located
Tr=F6bitz, page 17", which might be the one, if you know her husband's =
name.
=20
=20
....... tom klein, toronto


Gábor Hirsch <g_hirsch@...>
 

It is may be a drawback >from genealogical sight, that married women are listed with their husbands name, but this was the only name I knew my neighbors, my acquaintances. In the "Nevek" book >from KZ Stutthof the women were listed according their maiden names, so my cousin second grade, Biro Eva was separated on the list >from her mother Holczer Ilona, I knew her only as Ilonka neni or Biro Emilne, so it was only by chance that after finding Eva I looked for her mother too. I found this disturbing.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch
Switzerland


-------- Original-Nachricht --------

Datum: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 03:39:15 -0400
Von: tom <tomk@ecologicaltech.com>
An: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Betreff: Re:[h-sig] RE: Lists and Miskolc
http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll?jg~jgsys~sigspop
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
one of the drawbacks of the "hungarian jewish survivors listed in a
hungarian periodical" list seems to be that married women are listed in
the customary hungarian fashion as "wife of" and their husband's name,
but the transcription includes neither their given nor maiden names.

once again, it helps to experiment a bit with the search function: there
are 116 hits for exactly ROSENBERG, but none of them have a given name of
ilona. however, there are only 4 records for PINTER, including one for
"PINTE'R, Dr. Be'lane', born 1898, place of birth not specified, located
Tröbitz, page 17", which might be the one, if you know her husband's name.


....... tom klein, toronto
--
GMX startet ShortView.de. Hier findest Du Leute mit Deinen Interessen!
Jetzt dabei sein: http://www.shortview.de/?mc=sv_ext_mf@gmx


tom
 

one of the drawbacks of the "hungarian jewish survivors listed in a=
hungarian periodical" list seems to be that married women are listed in the=
customary hungarian fashion as "wife of" and their husband's name, but the=
transcription includes neither their given nor maiden names.

once again, it helps to experiment a bit with the search function: there are=
116 hits for exactly ROSENBERG, but none of them have a given name of=
ilona. however, there are only 4 records for PINTER, including one for=
"PINTE'R, Dr. Be'lane', born 1898, place of birth not specified, located=
Tr=F6bitz, page 17", which might be the one, if you know her husband's name=
=2E


=2E...... tom klein, toronto

peter bakos <pgbakos@hotmail.com> wrote:


This will be difficult, as I wish to keep within the maxim of Tom Venetiane=
=3D
r and his website to never "flame" any person or place, but...

I thank Gabor Hirsch for pointing out the problems of the "list >from a publ=
=3D
ication". I actually was shown this publication, at Sip u. of all places. =
=3D
Therein I found Ilona ROSENBERG PINTER, the aunt of my mother as being a s=
=3D
urvivor. (I have yet to find out what happened to that poor woman who lost=
=3D
both of her sons and her son-in-law in the Labor battalions and at the cam=
=3D
ps). As I only had a fleeting look at that book, I hoped to see it or the =
=3D
information online. But I guess that whatever has been completely transcri=
=3D
bed either did not include my grand-aunt, or she somehow was not put on the=
=3D
JG website.

[snip!]

Peter Bakos
Budapest
PODVINECZ >from Budapest, Nagy Becskerek, Novi Sad/Ujvidek, Vukovar, Modos, =
=3D
Baja
ROSENBERG/RACZ/RONAI, HERSCHKOVITS, MOSKOVITS, FISCH/FRISCH >from Abauj-Torn=
=3D
a megye
PEABODY/PATZAUER >from Miskolc and Szeged
SCHUSTER/SCHUSZTER >from Papa and Gyor