please comment #general


BREST FAMILY <angi@...>
 

Dear Jewishgenners,

I received this letter >from my (I am ashamed to say) 2nd cousin who wrote
this in relation to our SHILLMAN/MIRRELSON family tree.

I am very proud of all the family Trees I have prepared and religion does
not enter into it at all (for my part). What is important to me is the
GENES which connects us all to the Progenitor and not our religious
beliefs.

THIS IS THE LETTER (I have deleted his e.mail add.)

Dear Anne
Many times since we last corresponded, I have thought of writing to you
with a major criticism of your otherwise excellent family tree, and each
time have refrained. Now that I am writing to you anyway, I will tell you
what is on my mind.

It is long established Jewish family tree practice to omit out-married
branches as being no longer part of the Jewish family.

I personally am upset and offended that these dead branches of the family
tree are listed in full glorious detail as if nothing were amiss. I am
embarassed to be included in the family tree you have documented.

This is a minimum standard for a Jewish family tree. I have said nothing
about the more severe practice of retroactively omitting the name of the
out-married family member entirely as distinct >from just omitting mention
of the marriage and its offspring. I have not attempted to address the
question of the validity or otherwise of a given conversion, although that
is also an important matter. Just the very basic attribute of family and
community membership.

A Jewish family tree is not a horse pedigree chart, but is a social
document recording details of family members according to the rules
established for family membership.

I hope you do not take this attack personally, and would welcome your
response.

When we get this sorted out, I do have some factual comments which will
improve the accuracy of your data.

Please write.

David

END OF LETTER.

Best wishes
Anne

ANNE LAPEDUS BREST. Sandton South Africa. (ex DUBLIN, IRELAND)
Researching: : LAPEDUS/LAPIDUS (all spellings) Lithuania, Latvia,
Poland.
BREST - Bauska, Latvia.


L.M. Berkowitz <lmb@...>
 

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:34:21 +0200, "BREST FAMILY" <angi@ICON.CO.ZA> =
wrote:

:I am very proud of all the family Trees I have prepared and religion =
does
:not enter into it at all (for my part). What is important to me is the
:GENES which connects us all to the Progenitor and not our religious
:beliefs.
:
:THIS IS THE LETTER (I have deleted his e.mail add.)

:It is long established Jewish family tree practice to omit out-married
:branches as being no longer part of the Jewish family.=20
:
:I personally am upset and offended that these dead branches of the =
family
:tree are listed in full glorious detail as if nothing were amiss.=20

As an active historian and practicing Orthodox Jew, I most strongly
disagree with the opinion expressed above. Of course, one should make =
every
effort to ensure that one's own children are raised in the faith and =
carry
on the tradition. But in the case of ancestors who intermarried in =
previous
generations, this is not something we have control over and is not for us
to be the judge.

I get many requests >from non-Jews who visit my Civil War webpage in =
search
of Jewish ancestors and wanting to learn more about their heritage. For
this reason it is important to keep track of all family paths. I have =
heard
of cases in which persons wished to convert to Judaism based on family =
lore
of Jewish ancestors, and had to search through records for proof. Why =
make
it harder for them than it already is?


Leah Berkowitz lmb "at" adni.net lberkow1 "at" ford.com
http://www.jewish-history.com/ Jewish-American History


David Shapiro <dshapiro@...>
 

At 10:34 PM 11/16/98 +0200, you wrote:
Dear Jewishgenners,

I received this letter >from my (I am ashamed to say) 2nd cousin who wrote
this in relation to our SHILLMAN/MIRRELSON family tree.

I am very proud of all the family Trees I have prepared and religion does
not enter into it at all (for my part). What is important to me is the
GENES which connects us all to the Progenitor and not our religious
beliefs.

You should not be ashamed of your cousin, nor he of you. You have two
different approaches and interests in a family tree.

The late Rabbi Shmuel Gorr took your cousin's approach and would not record
on a famiy tree chart the names of any gentiles married into the family
(but he would include children of a Jewish woman by a Gentile father). This
would make sense since according to Halacha children of a Jewish woman by a
gentile are not related to their father, even if he converts after their
conception. Thus they do not inherit him, nor are marriages to his children
by another woman, even after his conversion, considered incest.

But the main point seems to be that your cousin is interested in his family
tree to inspire his children and relatives to follow in the family
tradition -- which is a legitimate reason to pursue genealogy -- and the
chart you have sent him is not helpful in this direction.

On the other hand, you say you are interested in genes. If you mean that
literally and are doing genetic research then your cousin should certainly
understand your interest. Even if you are just interested in historical
facts, and later will decide how to interpret them or to utilize them, no
one can complain. It's even possible that some of the relatives your cousin
would omit might have further information which would be of interest even
to your cousin.

I would suggest two possible solutions.

Solution A: Prepare two charts. One for research purposes, and the other
suitable for framing.

Solution B: Send your cousin a note explaining that since their are various
views on who should be included in the family chart (as he himself said
when he alluded to various views on what is considered a valid conversion),
you will not take a position, but will just present the dry facts. Anyone
who wishes to prepare his own partial chart is welcome to, but perhaps
should include a note that it is based upon a more comprehensie chart
prepared by you.

David Shapiro
Jerusalem
dshapiro@actcom.co.il


David Lewin <davidlewin@...>
 

At 22:34 16/11/98 +0200, you wrote:
Dear Jewishgenners,


It is long established Jewish family tree practice to omit out-married
branches as being no longer part of the Jewish family.
In my opinion

A tree is prepared primarily for the person who is creating it.

therefore - opinions of others are not salient in the decisions you come to.

Religion is a matter of BELIEF, and no amount of talking can - or must -
change that.

In deference to belief, I have adopted a single letter in the "baptised"
line of the non-Jewish database software to denote that a ranch has
"married out" - so that the fact is recorded and there, but definitely
INCLUDE all people in the tree.

One day, maybe, it will be necessary information for genetics study. If
that happens, than those with narrower views may well be happy to have the
knowledge of who is attached. Until then, do not try to persuade them.

David Lewin
London

-------
David in London and Margret in Munich run a small Search & Reunite office
attempting to help the many who suspect that despite the passage of so many
years since World War II, someone may still exist "out there"


MEL OSHINS
 

In article <199811162111.XAA21023@mail450.icon.co.za>, angi@ICON.CO.ZA (BREST FAMILY) writes:

A Jewish family tree is not a horse pedigree chart, but is a social
document recording details of family members according to the rules
established for family membership.

I hope you do not take this attack personally, and would welcome your
response.
SNIP
Dear Anne and Jewishgenners, I guess a Jewish Family Tree would hold only Jews and if that is all David wants, I believe he is entitled to that. But
a Descendancy Chart includes all people beginning >from as far back as we able to reach to the present. I have been overanxious in including everyone
who connects in anyway, shape or form and have now over 8600 names
connected to an OSHINSKY family. Some are Cohen's some are Levites and some
are Israelites.
Other are Agnostics, Converts both ways and also run the gamut of Christianity.
They are families of families, but they connect. I have difficulty in leaving them out. It would be like a jig-saw puzzle without all the pieces.

So it is my contention, that David take your chart and remove the names that seem to disturb him and keep it for his purposes as a Jewish Family Tree. You however continue to create a Descendancy Chart with the roots and branches spread out to the world.

Oshins of Love,
Mel
Mel Oshins
meloshins@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/meloshins
OSHINSKY, OSCHINSKY, OZINSKY, OSCHIN, OSHINS, OSHIN, OCEAN, JABLONSKY,
NAMCHEVSKY {Raczki, etc. in Suwalki Gubernia}
SCHMERER, BUND, RANZER {Czernovitz}


Jane Lachs <Jane@...>
 

Oh dear,
If this is true then I shouldn't be on this list at all.
I'm not Jewish but my husband is. I'm researching his side of the
tree because I want my children to know " where they come >from ".
Should I stop because my husband married outside of his religion?

Regards >from Jane Lachs in Munich
Jane@Henio.Muc.De :-)

Researching SHAW, TINGLE, CRAWSHAW, FIRTH, BREARLEY, HAIGH in WRY
LACHS in STRAHANCY (STRIGANTSY ? ) Ukraine
STERN IN BEREZANY Ukraine
SILBERFELD in POTOCHANY (PODGAYTSY ? ), Ukraine
CARR anywhere.