While search the 1906 ship's manifest for my great-uncle Isidor (called Eisik
on the manifest) SKOLNIK (SKOLNICK), who came >from Mir, Belarus, I found that
he was traveling with an unknown relative, Schapsel SKOLNICK, and that they had
come >from Konigsberg.

I assume that Isidor went to relatives in Konigsberg after the big fire in Mir
in the early 1900s.

Does anyone know what the Hebrew equivalent of the Yiddish Schapsel would be? I
assume that Schapsel means "lamb" or "little sheep" in Yiddish, but I'm just
guessing.

Also, does anyone know if there was a strong connection (trade) between Mir and
Konigsberg, down the River Nieman?

Wendy Almeleh
Great Neck, NY
(Walmeleh@...)

Wendy,
Shapsel, or Shepsl, or some other transliteration, are nicknames for Shabtay.

As of the connection of Mir, and most of the area of Belarus around the Nieman -
the forests in this area were used as raw materials to the carpentaries of Germany.
The wood industry of Belarus included experts of trees that selected the trees to
be cut, carpentaries that cut the trees into logs, and sailors who joined the logs
into rafts and brought it on the river to Germany. While sailing on the river, the
sailors used to buy food and needs in the villages along it. So, many Jews who
lived along the Nieman had connections with settlements down the river.

Ofer Cohen
Israel


WAlmeleh wrote:

from walmeleh@... (WAlmeleh):

.... Snipped ....

Does anyone know what the Hebrew equivalent of the Yiddish Schapsel would be? I
assume that Schapsel means "lamb" or "little sheep" in Yiddish, but I'm just
guessing.

Shepsel is a nickname for Shabtai, or in Ashkenazi pronunciation
Shabsai. Shabtai comes >from the root Shabbat (Sabbath or rest),
and is also the Hebrew word for the planet Saturn. This is the name
of one of the heads (and also a Levite), who left Bavel (Babylon) to
return to Eretz Yisrael (The Land of Israel) in the time of Ezra
and Nechemia.

One of my great-great-grandfathers >from the village of Narewka
(Narikfa) near Bialystok was called Shepsel FRIEDMAN, and his
official name was Shabtai/Shabsai .

Please note my new email address.

Shabbat Shalom
David Ziants
dziants@...

Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
Also searching:
ZENETSKI became ZIANTS and ISHMA became DAVIDSON all >from Narewka.

In a message dated 7/28/00 12:10:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
walmeleh@... writes:

<< Does anyone know what the Hebrew equivalent of the Yiddish Schapsel would
be?
=Shabbetai

Also, does anyone know if there was a strong connection (trade) between Mir
and
Konigsberg, down the River Nieman? >>
==The timber trade down the river was almost entirely in Jewish hands

Michael Bernet, New York

My g-g-grandfather was known as Shapsel or Szepsel. His Hebrew name was
Shabbatai.

Harriet Brown
Madison, WI

I believe that it is most commonly used as a "nickname" for the hebrew name
Shabsai (or Shabtai).

Cyndee Meystel
Chicago, IL


"WAlmeleh" <walmeleh@...> wrote in message
news:20000727202735.24313.00000401@......

Does anyone know what the Hebrew equivalent of the Yiddish Schapsel would

be? I

assume that Schapsel means "lamb" or "little sheep" in Yiddish, but I'm

just

guessing.

Also, does anyone know if there was a strong connection (trade) between

Mir and

Konigsberg, down the River Nieman?

Wendy Almeleh

Ditto. One of my forbears was named Rabbi ben Shabbatai Rechnitz.
Harriet Brown <hnbrown@...> wrote in message
news:v04011702b5a73857754d@[156.46.107.164]...

My g-g-grandfather was known as Shapsel or Szepsel. His Hebrew name was
Shabbatai.
Harriet Brown
Madison, WI

Does anyone know what the Hebrew equivalent of the Yiddish Schapsel would
be? I
assume that Schapsel means "lamb" or "little sheep" in Yiddish, but I'm

just

guessing.

mailto:hnbrown@...

from walmeleh@... (WAlmeleh):

.... snipped ....

Does anyone know what the Hebrew equivalent of the Yiddish
Schapsel would be?

... snipped ...

To which I replied:

Shepsel is a nickname for Shabtai, or in Ashkenazi pronunciation
Shabsai.

The name in Hebrew is spelt: shin,bet,tav,yud .

Some of the responses transliterated the name as Shabatai, etc.,
indicating a vowel under the Hebrew letter bet. This vowel should
be a vocalised "sh'va" (a very short "e" sound), and although the
"Shabatai" transliterations are still not one hundred percent because
they give an "a" rather than an "e", they are better than the one
I (and a few other people) provided.

The reason why the "sh'va" under the bet is vocalised and not silent
is because within the Mesora (traditional rendering) where the name
apppears in the K'tuvim ("Writings", third part of Tanach=Bible) the
bet has a dagesh (dot) which implies that this becomes
a separate syllable, thus the following tav which concludes this
syllable does not have a dagesh and is pronounced softly;
(for example as an "s" in Ashkenazi pronunciation).

Thus we have Shab-besai in Ashkenazi pronunciation.

In the hypothetical situation that there was not a dagesh in the bet
we would have in Ashkenazi pronunciation Shav-tai (i.e. the bet being
without a dagesh is "v" and is now at the end of the syllable, and
the tav with a dagesh is "t" and is now starting the next syllable).
Although both Shavtai and my previous Shabtai are easier on the lips,
and often Yiddish words and names grew >from a "lazy" Hebrew, I have
no idea whether these could ever be accepted as formal Yiddish
alternatives. Maybe, I have just made up a new Yiddish name (<grin>).

Now back to correct Hebrew, and having noticed my error in my previous
posting, I looked up some English translations where the name appears
in the Tanach, for example in Nechemia 8:7. The transliteration
by Koren publications gives Shabbetay, and in an older translation I
have, this is rendered Shabbethai (note double "b" which implies a
bet with dagesh and thus a pronounced sh'va indicated by the e and a
"th" for soft tav in the older transliteration/translation).

Thank you for bearing with a posting which goes into technical grammar
details, but having noticed my imprecision I didn't want to proliferate
misnomers.

In today's day-to-day spoken Hebrew, it seems that many people
would forget the vocalised "sh'va" in this name and pronounce
this Shabtai but this is not accurate Hebrew, and I doubt
that it would be tolerated on the Israeli radio and TV news.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

On a Google search, I noticed on a reply to a posting I made more than two decades ago, that I signed off:-

<<< ZENETSKI became ZIANTS and ISHMA became DAVIDSON all from Narewka. >>>

A few years after then, I found out concerning my own family (who lived in London, England, UK) that;-

1) ISHMA  that my grandmother told me was the original family name of her paternal family, was really ISMACH (and my great-grandfather, Alter, changed this to DAVIDSON for himself and possibly for his father). His brother (i.e. my second great uncle), Abraham, changed his family name to OSMAN and married and raised his family in Glasgow, Scotland, UK

2) Of course my great-grandmother, Alka (Alice) changed her maiden name to that of her husband. What was not told to me was that Alka's brothers changed the name from ZENETSKY to SCHLOSBERG and I only found this out on receiving a condolence call from a distant cousin after the last of my grandparents left this world.

I am sure I have many other places to correct this statement on my replies and postings from the  earlier days of this forum.

--
David Ziants

Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel