Yiddish pronunciation #general


Martin Green <btestware@...>
 

Mishigina/mishugina is an example of the difference
between Polish and Litvish, or Lithuanian Yiddish.
Similarly, gekimmen/gekummen. Zug/zog is an
example of the same thing...similarly, vus/vos
and dus/dos.

Another indicator, which you don't mention here,
is ey/ay. For example, Polish would be "kayn",
rhymes with "mine", and Litvish would be "keyn",
rhymes with "pain".

You might also note that as far as Yiddish pronunciation
is concerned, "Lithuania" extends quite a long way, including
all of White Russia.

Martin Green

My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he remembers
from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
(in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
choosing a couple of words >from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.

mishigina (I would say mishugana)
zug yur (my uncle-in-law says this means say yes, I would pronounce say as
zag)


Nachum <nachum@...>
 

My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he remembers
from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
(in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
choosing a couple of words >from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.

mishigina (I would say mishugana)
zug yur (my uncle-in-law says this means say yes, I would pronounce say as
zag)

A Chatima Tova to all JewishGenners and all Beit Yisrael, and TIA.

Nachum Tuchman
Tekoa, Israel


Dr. Joseph M. Schwarcz, Dr. Ida C. Selavan <idayosef@...>
 

With only two examples the response must be, Southern Yiddish,
i.e. Ukrainian and Romanian, which are basically the same. The
technical name for this pronunciation is "Mome Tote Lushn" while
the Northern, (Litvish) pronunciation is called "Tate Mame
Loshn."
Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel
Nachum wrote:


My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he remembers
from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
(in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
choosing a couple of words >from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.

mishigina (I would say mishugana)
zug yur (my uncle-in-law says this means say yes,I would pronounce say as
zag)

A Chatima Tova to all JewishGenners and all Beit Yisrael, and TIA.

Nachum Tuchman
Tekoa, Israel
mailto:nachum@avichai.org.il


Anne Bernhaut <annebernhaut@...>
 

Hi Nahum

The couple of Yiddish words you mention, "mishigina" and "zug yur" (should
be "yo") are pronunciations >from Polish Galicia, (former Austrian province
till World War I). My parents are >from Chrzanow and Brzesko (first town is
about 40km East of Krakow, and second town is about 80km west of Krakow)
and they pronounced the words as you indicate. I would actually say the
words are more: "meshigeneh" and "zug yoh".

Let me know what you think. I speak Yiddish so I could help you with some
of your questions.

Shana Tova

Anne Bernhaut
Melbourne, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: Nachum <nachum@avichai.org.il>
To: JewishGen Discussion Group <jewishgen@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 1:56 PM
Subject: Yiddish pronunciation

My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he remembers
from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
(in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
choosing a couple of words >from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.

mishigina (I would say mishugana)
zug yur (my uncle-in-law says this means say yes,I would pronounce say as
zag)

A Chatima Tova to all JewishGenners and all Beit Yisrael, and TIA.

Nachum Tuchman
Tekoa, Israel


Martin Green <btestware@...>
 

Ida Schwarcz wrote:

With only two examples the response must be, Southern Yiddish,
i.e. Ukrainian and Romanian, which are basically the same. The
technical name for this pronunciation is "Mome Tote Lushn" while
the Northern, (Litvish) pronunciation is called "Tate Mame
Loshn."
Yes, the two examples given would be consistent with Romanian.
However, you can't rule out Polish, which is quite similar. The
most obvious way to distinguish between Polish and Romanian
(South Russian) is the vowel shift on words like "shabbes",
which becomes "shobbes" in Romanian Yiddish.

Martin Green
http://www.onforeignsoil.com


mpfreed28315861@...
 

In article <00a901c02837$10414840$261e96d4@barak.net.il>,
"Nachum" <nachum@avichai.org.il> wrote:
My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he
remembers
from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
(in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
choosing a couple of words >from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.

mishigina (I would say mishugana)
zug yur (my uncle-in-law says this means say yes, I would pronounce
say as
zag)
I would think they are of Polak (including Galitziane)provenance.
However there was also a marked Dutch influence on much of the Yiddish
spoken in the East End.

I am of Litvak origins and the words in question I know as "meshugane"
and "zog yoh". The differences between the various Yiddish dialects
(there were four main ones)centred mainly on the vowels. Incidentally,
I believe the Litvak pronunciation is the preferred pronunciation of
Yiddish in academia.

Murray Freedman


Judith Romney Wegner
 

Ida Schwarcz wrote:
The
most obvious way to distinguish between Polish and Romanian
(South Russian) is the vowel shift on words like "shabbes",
which becomes "shobbes" in Romanian Yiddish.

Martin Green
That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
pronunciation! It rhymes with "lobbes" -- Anglo-Yiddish for "naughty boy"
-- usually called a "mazzik" by American Jews). In fact, we had a naughty
little song when I was a kid, which (sung to a well known Latino melody, I
think) went like this:

He is a lobbes -- he is a lobbes --
He takes the shikses /to the pictures/ on the shobbes!

Not very p.c., admittedly -- but then none of us were, in those days!

Judith Romney Wegner


mpfreed28315861@...
 

In article < v03010d0db5fc56ca2813@[128.148.44.87]>,
Judith Romney Wegner < jrw@Brown.edu > wrote:
That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
pronunciation!
Correction: It was *an* but not *the* Anglo-Jewish pronunciation. It was
always "shabbes" in the North and Scotland where Litvak immigrants
predominated.

It rhymes with "lobbes" -- Anglo-Yiddish for "naughty boy"
-- usually called a "mazzik" by American Jews). In fact, we had a
naughty
little song when I was a kid, which (sung to a well known Latino
melody, I
think) went like this:

He is a lobbes -- he is a lobbes --
He takes the shikses /to the pictures/ on the shobbes!
The rhyme that I remember went as follows:-

The boy stood on the burning deck
His father called him lobbes
Because he wouldn't wash his dirty neck
To go to shul on shabbes !

Murray Freedman


Mike Glazer <glazer@...>
 

"Judith Romney Wegner" <jrw@Brown.edu> wrote in message
news:v03010d0db5fc56ca2813@[128.148.44.87]...
That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
pronunciation! It rhymes with "lobbes" -- Anglo-Yiddish for "naughty
boy"
You might be interested to know that the word lobus (first letter pronounced
rather like a "w") is Polish for an urchin. I guess this is where the
Yiddish word comes from.

Mike Glazer
Oxford


Jerzy Hubert <jzhubert@...>
 

Actually, in Polish, it spells "l/obuz" with a variation of "L" at the
beginning (sounding like a W sound in English "one"), and with the letter "Z"
at the end. I presume, sometimes "l/obuz" was similar in meaning to "batiar",
which was very popular in Lwo'w (Lviv, Lemberg).
However, I do not know if "batiar" had any Yiddish equivalent.

J.Z.Hubert
Jax.,Fl
Mike Glazer wrote:


"Judith Romney Wegner" <jrw@Brown.edu> wrote in message
news:v03010d0db5fc56ca2813@[128.148.44.87]...
That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
pronunciation! It rhymes with "lobbes" -- Anglo-Yiddish for "naughty
boy"
You might be interested to know that the word lobus (first letter pronounced
rather like a "w") is Polish for an urchin. I guess this is where the
Yiddish word comes from.

Mike Glazer
Oxford
mailto:


Judith Romney Wegner
 

Judith wrote:
That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
pronunciation!
Murray replied:
Correction: It was *an* but not *the* Anglo-Jewish pronunciation. It was
always "shabbes" in the North and Scotland where Litvak immigrants
predominated.
The rhyme that I remember went as follows:-
The boy stood on the burning deck
His father called him lobbes
Because he wouldn't wash his dirty neck
To go to shul on shabbes !
Aha! But the northern pronunciation ruins the rhyme -- unless Litvaks also
pronounced
"lobbes" as "labbes", of course! I suspect the rhyme must have originated
in London!
Thanks for reminding me of the burning deck ditty.

And thanks also for the gently chiding reminder that "If you 'avn't been
to Manchester you 'avn't lived!" We Londoners always were
provincially-challenged!

Judith Romney Wegner

MODERATOR NOTE: Question has been answered. Thread is closed.