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Name Clarification #general


SBernst579@...
 

I would appreciate if someone might offer clarification of the names listed
below. The names are >from certificates I recently received >from the Polish
Archives.
Do the portions of the names Abramovna Nestempov relate to the husband Moshek
or the spouse Shandosh? Would the ovna at the end of Abram mean that
Shandosh's grandfather was named Abraham Nestempov?

Cert #5
religious matrimony took place between the present here Nusen Leiba Kotciolek
, bachelor eighteen year old , born in village Katcic of Pultusk Diocese
region and living with parents Abram and Sheina Kotciolek and Sprintza
Nestempover, maiden twenty three year old, living in town Pultusk with
parents born to husband and wife, Moshek and Shandosh Abramovna Nestempov

---
On this certificate, would the name Germanovich mean that the Karashov's were
from Germany? In addition, what does Sheina-Eli born Abramovitch mean?
Cert #27
ceremony took place between bachelor Manas Zalman Karashov, worker twenty six
year old, inhabitant of Pultusk and born in this town, son of deceased Ioska
and Ruchla Germanovitch Karashov, and maiden Lipa Nestempover, twenty year
old, daughter of Moshek and Sheina-Eli born Abramovitch, husband and wife
Nestempover.

Stewart Bernstein
Thousand Oaks, CA


Stan Goodman <stan@...>
 

On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:24:03, SBernst579@... opined:

I would appreciate if someone might offer clarification of
the names listed below. The names are >from certificates I
recently received >from the Polish Archives. Do the portions
of the names Abramovna Nestempov relate to the husband Moshek
or the spouse Shandosh? Would the ovna at the end of Abram mean
that Shandosh's grandfather was named Abraham Nestempov?

Cert #5
religious matrimony took place between the present here Nusen
Leiba Kotciolek, bachelor eighteen year old , born in village
Katcic of Pultusk Diocese region and living with parents Abram
and Sheina Kotciolek and Sprintza Nestempover, maiden twenty
three year old, living in town Pultusk with parents born to
husband and wife, Moshek and Shandosh Abramovna Nestempov

Shandosh is the daughter of an Abram; she is married to Moshek
Nestempov.

On this certificate, would the name Germanovich mean that the
Karashov's were >from Germany? In addition, what does Sheina-Eli
born Abramovitch mean?

Cert #27
ceremony took place between bachelor Manas Zalman Karashov,
worker twenty six year old, inhabitant of Pultusk and born in
this town, son of deceased Ioska and Ruchla Germanovitch Karashov,
and maiden Lipa Nestempover, twenty year old, daughter of Moshek
and Sheina-Eli born Abramovitch, husband and wife Nestempover.

The G of "German" is an artefact of the fact that the Russian language
does not possess an H. "Germanovitch" means "Son of Herman". That is a
problem, because the name "Ruchla Germanovitch Karashov" means that
the second word, apparently a patronymic, has a gender problem, and
should be "Germanovna", "Daughter of Herman".

"Born Abramovitch" is precisely what would be meant by "nee
Abramovitch"; "Abramovitch" is her maiden surname, and is not a
patronymic here. The lady has two given names, "Sheina" and "Eli". My
guess is that "Eli" is short for Russian "Elena" (Helen), and is
probably the name she used for ordinary purposes (else it would not
have been shortened to a nickname).

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, ROKITA: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com

Please note: To send me email, please delete the REMOVE_THIS >from my
address.


Joe Armata <armata+@...>
 

a problem, because the name "Ruchla Germanovitch Karashov" means that
the second word, apparently a patronymic, has a gender problem, and
should be "Germanovna", "Daughter of Herman".
One thought: the name may have been translated >from "Ruchla z
Germanovitchov Karashov," which would have been grammatically OK (Ruchla,
nee Hermanovitch, Karashov).

Joe Armata
armata@...


Stan Goodman <stan@...>
 

On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:00:37, armata+@... (Joe Armata) opined:

a problem, because the name "Ruchla Germanovitch Karashov" means that
the second word, apparently a patronymic, has a gender problem, and
should be "Germanovna", "Daughter of Herman".
One thought: the name may have been translated >from "Ruchla z
Germanovitchov Karashov," which would have been grammatically OK (Ruchla,
nee Hermanovitch, Karashov).
That's good thinking, but I don't think I have ever seen such a name.
The usual construction is <name> z <father's given name>, which
doesn't fit your hypothesis. Nor have I ever seen a surname like
<root>ovichov. If you have seen either of these, please correct me. If
not, then any way you slice it, the name is problematic.


--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, ROKITA: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com

Please note: To send me email, please delete the REMOVE_THIS >from my
address.


Joe Armata <armata+@...>
 

a problem, because the name "Ruchla Germanovitch Karashov" means that
the second word, apparently a patronymic, has a gender problem, and
should be "Germanovna", "Daughter of Herman".
One thought: the name may have been translated >from "Ruchla z
Germanovitchov Karashov,"which would have been grammatically OK(Ruchla,
nee Hermanovitch, Karashov).
That's good thinking, but I don't think I have ever seen such a name.
The usual construction is <name> z <father's given name>, which
doesn't fit your hypothesis. Nor have I ever seen a surname like
<root>ovichov.

Here are some examples for some -ovichov maiden surnames recorded in
Polish:

Kazimierz 1811: Frajda "z Berkow Szmulowiczow"
Kazimierz 1813: Itta "z Berkowiczow"
Bialobrzegi 1845: Itta "z Zacharyaszowiczow"

I've also seen, as I think you mentioned, just father's first names used
with -ov:
Bialobrzegi 1867: Itta "z Zacharyaszow"

On a quick look-through of some records I have on hand, I couldn't find
any Russian records with specifically maiden -ovichov surnames, though I'm
certain I've seen them. But here are some other Russian maiden surnames
with -ov that work on the same principle:

Zakroczym 1877: Nekha "urozhdennoj z Frostov"
Mlawa 1887: Zlata "iz Shwartzbaumov"

So it's logical that if the maiden surname were Hermanovich, one way to
record it would be "z Hermanovichov".

And here's my favorite, >from a Polish record, recording in one long
complicated name Itta, born of Aron Wulwowicz, the wife of Lejbus
Szmulowicz:
Kazimierz 1811: Itta "z Aronow Wulwowiczow Lejbusiowa Szmulowiczowa"

Joe Armata
armata@...