From Posen to Berlin #general


Udi Cain
 

Dear all.

My maternal grandfather's father, Solomon (Sally) Zalman LOSZYNSKI
(1874-1952), and his brothers, Abraham (-1940) and Peretz (-1940), were
born in: Schocken (also spelled Schokken), town in the district (Kreis) of
Wongrowitz, province of Posen in Prussia, administrative district of
Bromberg, today Skoki in Polish [quotation >from description by Ron
Brinitzer].
My maternal grandfather's mother, Jenny Yentel ARENHEIM (1877-1965), and
her sister Natalie (-1940) and brother Michael, were born in Rogasen, town
at the same district.
Sally Solomon, was son of Mina (1837-1923) >from Posen, and Jacob Michoel
Loszynski (born 1840-no date of death..).
Jenny's parents: Yeta BIEBER (1848-1920) and Abraham Arenheim (1850-?).
Abraham's parents: Rosa WRESCHNER (died 1853) >from Filhene, Michael Arnheim
(born 1821-?) in Schneidemuhl.
As it occurs occasionally in fairytales, Jenny Married Sally, and her
sister, Natalie, married Sally's brother, Abraham. They dealt with textile
and furs, built a small familial factory in Rogasen, and after WW I, went
to Berlin, and established a big factory. Jenny felt that it's time to
leave Germany and managed to bring over to Israel, just her close family,
while her brother and sister, couldn't bear the idea of living
the "fleshpot"... I'm looking for information about Rosa's grandfather,
Rabbi Wreschner, who was a dayan in Posen.
I'm looking for the origin of the Loszynski family, which I think was
Lithuania / Belarus. Jacob Michoel Loszynski, was an officer in Wilhelm's
army, and I'm interested to find out what was he doing in the Prussian army.
My maternal grandmother's parents >from Berlin were:
Josef Arthur NATANSON (17.12.1872 – 2.7.1915) and Elsa BADT (13.2.1879 –
2.7.1938).
Their parents: Josef's father: Herman Natanson (26.9.1832–26.1.1877), son
of Levin Josef Adolph Natanson (2.12.1797 - 9.1.1866) and Adeline JACOBI.
Josef's mother: Janet NORMAN (14.2.1842 Shneidemuhl 23.3.1888 Berlin),
daughter of Jacob Elias Norman, Shneidemuhl, and Johanna Norman.
Elsa's father: Ludwig Badt, >from Briesen. Ost Proisen (10.11.1844 –
21.8.1892) son of Julius, Badt and Rodericka LAZARUS. Elsa's mother:
Natalie OPENHEIMER. (Lowenberg, 17.3.1855-19.4.1937 Berlin), daughter of
Moritz Openheimer, and Eva Jacobi.
Josef Arthur Natanson, was an officer in the German army, and was killed
during a fight over a bridge some where.
Few ancestors >from my grandmother's side, also came >from Posen district, I
suppose that there were early connections between booth sides.
The tradition in my Natanson family is, that they are >from Spanish origin
(deported in 1492 and went to Berlin).
Any information will be appreciated.

Regards >from Jerusalem. Udi Cain.


sallybru@nospam.wdcunet.net <sallybru@...>
 

It was unlikely that Spanish Jews went to Berlin in 1492. Spanish Jews did
not mix with Ashkenazi so there would be little likelihood that they went
to co-religionists. Spanish Jews went to places they thought they could
remain Spanish -Portugal and Islamic lands. Some went to Spanish colonies
where they continued to practice their religion in secret. If they
maintained a Sephardi heritage, they would most likely have retained their
surnames also, which they didn't.

In 1492, there were few 'city people' of any kind and Jews in particular
moved and had to move around. It is most unlikely that German Jews stayed
somewhere for 400 years especially a city, so if you find records you will
probably find they came >from somewhere else in Germany.

It is of course possible that there was Sephardi ancestry, but I would
highly doubt that they went to Berlin in 1492 and stayed there.

PS In English, Sally is a woman's name. You probably mean Solly-short for
Solomon-a man's name. :-) I had to read the part about Sally marrying Jenny
3 times before it made sense!

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


Udi Cain
 

It was unlikely that Spanish Jews went to Berlin in 1492. Spanish Jews
did not mix with Ashkenazi so there would be little likelihood that they
went to co-religionists. Spanish Jews went to places they thought they
could remain Spanish -Portugal and Islamic lands. Some went to Spanish
colonies where they continued to practice their religion in secret. If
they maintained a Sephardi heritage, they would most likely have
retained their surnames also, which they didn't.

In 1492, there were few 'city people' of any kind and Jews in particular
moved and had to move around. It is most unlikely that German Jews stayed
somewhere for 400 years especially a city, so if you find records you
will probably find they came >from somewhere else in Germany.

It is of course possible that there was Sephardi ancestry, but I would
highly doubt that they went to Berlin in 1492 and stayed there.

PS In English, Sally is a woman's name. You probably mean Solly-short for
Solomon-a man's name. I had to read the part about Sally marrying Jenny
3 times before it made sense!

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY
Dear Sally.

Indeed you are right, it was Zally for Zalman!

As for the "oral evidence" or "family tradition", of the Nathansons'
being >from Spanish Jewish origin, I have no written proof.
I can guess that if they left Spain in 1492, and wandered through France,
they may had landed eventually in Berlin, since they may had something that
they could "sell" to the city, maybe they were physicians, or wealthy
merchants?
I learned >from other events, that "there is no smoke without fire".

Best regards. Udi Cain.


Stephen G. Esrati <stevsta@...>
 

Spanish Jews also settled in the Low Countries (Belgium, Netherlands,
and the German Rhineland).

Sally is the common nickname for Salomon, the German/Dutch way of
spelling Solomon. Jews did not have surnames in 1492.


Spanish Jews went to places they thought they could
remain Spanish -Portugal and Islamic lands. Some went to Spanish
colonies where they continued to practice their religion in secret.
If they maintained a Sephardi heritage, they would most likely have
retained their surnames also, which they didn't.

PS In English, Sally is a woman's name. You probably mean Solly-short
for Solomon-a man's name. :-) I had to read the part about Sally
marrying Jenny 3 times before it made sense!

Stephen G. Esrati
Shaker Heights, OH


Haakon Chevalier <haakonc@...>
 

Dear Udi,

My family (specifically my mother's father's father, Simon Lazarus
Lansburgh) was also >from Posen, and we also have a tradition of being
Sephardic. In my case, he married into a mixture of Ashkenazic Jews (at
least members of the London and Kingston, Jamaica Ashkenazic Synagogues)
and Sephardic (Jamaican) Jews. Now, there are some Lansburghs and
Posners >from Posen (to whom we may or not be related) who have a
well-documented genealogy back to the 1490s in Calahorra, Spain. So
there definitely were Sephardim in those parts.

Another thing which made your email interesting to me was the surname
Lazarus. This is often a Sephardic surname. I have wondered if my
great-grandfather might have gotten his middle name >from some
intermarriage into that family, but I haven't noticed it in Posen
before.

Haakon Chevalier

reply to: HaakonC@...
researching: LANSBURGH in Posen, REICH or RAICHA in Mlady Smolivec,
Bohemia, NEWMAN in Praha, PEIXOTTO in Jamaica, PYKE in London, SNOOK in
Amsterdam, somebody in Berlin, etc.


<<...Few ancestors >from my grandmother's side, also came >from Posen
district, I suppose that there were early connections between booth
sides. The tradition in my Natanson family is, that they are >from
Spanish origin (deported in 1492 and went to Berlin).
Any information will be appreciated.

Regards >from Jerusalem. Udi Cain.
mailto:chaikin@...>>