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Origin of Ida, a woman's personal name. #general


MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 2/1/2003 12:15:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
a.sharon@shaw.ca writes:

<< Ida is an abbreviation of Idalia. A very common Jewish name in past
Eastern Europe. My Mom in law z'l was Idalia (Ida) a feminine version of
Judah (Yudl, Yiddele) >>

==Arguable, I think. I have never come across the name Idalia and had you
asked me to guess, I would have said it was a countytown in Idaho. Your
late mother-in-law may well be the only bearer of that name. Idalia is not
mentioned in Beider's dictionary of Ashkenazi given names--but Ida is, and
it's listed by Beider under Yudes (Judith).

==Ida has long ago developed and identity of its own and is no more to be
thought of as an abbreviation than, say, John. One of my dictionaries
tells me it's >from a Germanic word meaning "happy," another that it may be
from the Old Norse goddess of youth. Ida is by no means a specifically
Jewish name

==Among Jews Ida is often--but by no means exclusively--derived >from
Judith (rom the Hebrew Yehudit), the name of two women in the Bible. True,
Yehudit means "of Judea" and by extension "Jewish," but it is definitely a
name independent of Judah though essentially parallel to it.

==I can readily believe that Yehudit/Judith is often the name given to a
daughter in memory of a male named Yehuda/Judah, but it is not
the "feminine version" of that name in the sense that it has been adapted
from that source.
Michael Bernet,
New York


Alexander Sharon
 

<MBernet@aol.com> wrote
a.sharon@shaw.ca writes:

<< Ida is an abbreviation of Idalia. A very common Jewish name in past
Eastern Europe. My Mom in law z'l was Idalia (Ida) a feminine version of
Judah (Yudl, Yiddele) >>

==Arguable, I think. I have never come across the name Idalia and had you
asked me to guess, I would have said it was a countytown in Idaho. Your
late mother-in-law may well be the only bearer of that name. Idalia is not
mentioned in Beider's dictionary of Ashkenazi given names--but Ida is, and
it's listed by Beider under Yudes (Judith).
(...)

Michael,

Argument that you have never come across the name Idalia or that name is
not in Alexander Beider's dictionary, does not prvide the proof that name
was no adopted by Jewish people.

My mother in law, Ida (Idalia) Abramson came >from the intelectual Vilna
Yiddishkite family. Her mother was the daughter of the originally Vilna
Troupe and later the Warsaw Yiddishe Art Theater (VYKT) actress. I recall
conversation between my mother in law and the Great Dame of the Yiddsihe
Theatre, Ida Kaminska (1966 Oscar winner for the role in "The Shop on the
Main Street), daughter of the famous Vilna actress Esther Rochel Kaminska,
in the Warsaw Jewish Theater during sixties.

Their names- Idalia or Ida was not Americanized version of Yetta. Both
ladies were named as Ida (Idalia) in Vilna by their Yiddishe parents.

--
Alexander Sharon
Calgary


MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 2/4/2003 4:04:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
a.sharon@shaw.ca rersponded to my posting

<< I have never come across the name Idalia and had you
> asked me to guess, I would have said it was a countytown in Idaho. Your
> late mother-in-law may well be the only bearer of that name. Idalia is
> not mentioned in Beider's dictionary of Ashkenazi given names--but Ida
> is, and it's listed by Beider under Yudes (Judith).
(...)

Michael,

Argument that you have never come across the name Idalia or that name is
not in Alexander Beider's dictionary, does not prvide the proof that name
was no adopted by Jewish people.

No, it does not provide proof that it was used here or there, but though it
may have been used by your gransmother or even mine, doesn't make it into a
"Jewish" name any more than Clementine or Clothilde (nor even Myron and
Sheldon, Ignatz or Isidore) are Jewish names just because some or even many
Jews used them.

When we discuss Jewish names, we should limit ourselves to names that have a
predominantly Jewish origin, >from the Hebrew Bible, >from the Hebrew
language, >from the Talmud (but even here there are many non-Jewish nonce
names), or direct translations there>from (e.g. Belinfante and Bonfils >from
BenTov and ElemTov, Wolff or Hirsch >from Binyamin or Naftali, Bondi or
Guttentag >from YomTov), or specifically Jewish Yiddish names.

Ida is a common name in many countries. Among Jews it is derived
predominantly >from forms of Yehudit/Judith; that is its _Jewish_ source. As
a _Jewish_ name it is not an abbreviation of Idaho, Ideal, Idalinka, Idalina
or Ideology. Yehudit/Judith is the only source for the name Ida as a
_Jewish_ name.

As genealogist we must be very careful not to assume that because we have
one instance or even three of a specific name correlation, that this is
universal nor even preponderant. Someone recently asked how the names Mary
and Rosa are connected. I didn't open thatb ee-mail but I can give you the
answer: because thats how someone somewhere at some time named a person or
changed a person's name.

I have three first names. My Hebrew name is Me'ir, my German given name is
Manfred, I chose to be called Michael. There is absolutely no other
connection between those names. It would be totally untrue to claim that
one is a variant, derivative or translation of one of the others. Me'ir is
a Hebrew name. Manfred most definitely not (it was popular among German Jews
in the 1920's-30s who wanted to give their children a perfectly German first
name--even among the orthodox. One of my Orthodox schoolmates was called
Manfred in German, Freddy in England--and he actually had Mikha'el as a
Hebrew name).


I didn't know that Ida Kaminska was known by any other first name--and I
happened to be friendly in Israel with her niece. She did not call herself
Idalia professionally and the Enc Judaica, which goes into great detail
about each member of her extended theatrical family, uses only the name Ida.
Of course I didn't claim that the name Ida is an American derivation of
Yetta--because it isn't. Again, a Yetta or a Yenta here or there may have
called herself Ida, just as she could have called herself Henrietta or Buffy
or Clementine

So, please, we should all be on guard not to mislead or be misled by
occasional occurrences. Just because a certain name correlation has
occurred once or twice, it does not establish a rule for genealogists or
scholars of names. Myron may have been a popular name in the first half of
the 20th century for American Jews named Meyer, and Selwyn for Zangwil (and
hence for Samuel), but that does not make them _Jewish_ names.

Ida, as a _Jewish_ name is derived >from Yehudit/Judith. But Is a nice name;
perhaps I'll give the name to my next daughter, after her grandmother
Chaye-Sarah.

Michael Bernet,
New York


Jane Reifer <cluttercontrol@...>
 

I had a cousin who was called Ida in the United States, but was called
Hudel back home in Husiatyn, Galicia.

Jane Ehrlich Reifer
Fullerton, California, USA

Researching: REIFER (Banilov, Davidovka, Monastyriska, Roshch,
Vizhnitsa, Storozhinets, Chernivtsi [all in Ukraine], Israel, USA);
REISCH (Revna & Chernivtsi, Ukraine); ROESSLER / RESSLER (Chernivtsi &
Stetsova, Ukraine, USA); HOROWITZ (Horodenka, Stetsova & Chernivtsi [all
in Ukraine], USA); SPASSER (Panka & Storozhinets, Ukraine); HERZ,
DAVIDSON, SCHOEN (Hungary, USA); EHRLICH (Hungary, Vienna Austria, USA)


Sally Bruckheimer
 

I read, "No Jew was ever called Phoebus." But my 2nd
gr grandfather was. I have seen Polish records of
Jews in Russian Poland using all sorts of Polish, evidently
'non-Jewish', names. And we have recently seen other
examples, including Christine!

So the terms to use are: common, uncommon, and rare.
But never? Never.

Sally Bruckheimer
Harrison, NY


Alexander Sharon
 

When we discuss Jewish names, we should limit ourselves to names that
have a predominantly Jewish origin, >from the Hebrew Bible, >from the
Hebrew language, >from the Talmud (but even here there are many non-
Jewish nonce names), or direct translations there>from (e.g. Belinfante
and Bonfils >from BenTov and ElemTov, Wolff or Hirsch >from Binyamin or
Naftali, Bondi or Guttentag >from YomTov), or specifically Jewish Yiddish
names.
Why should we?

During Russian rule, and many of the Genners ancestors that have originated
from the Pale territory (this include Poland, Ukraine and Baltics) have
been specifically _forbidden_ to use Biblical names and an artificial name
like Movsha or Ovsey have been created by the Tsar administration. How can
we trace those names to The Bible or Talmud?

Birth records by kehila for my ancestors town Boryslaw in Eastern Galicia
show for 1878 such names as "Amalia, Arnold, Elka, Ernestine, Eugenia,
Genia, Helena, Mieczysalwa ....and so on.

I didn't know that Ida Kaminska was known by any other first name--and I
happened to be friendly in Israel with her niece. She did not call
herself Idalia professionally and the Enc Judaica, which goes into great
detail about each member of her extended theatrical family, uses only
the name Ida.
Of course I didn't claim that the name Ida is an American derivation of
Yetta--because it isn't. Again, a Yetta or a Yenta here or there may have
called herself Ida, just as she could have called herself Henrietta or
Buffy or Clementine
I happened to be also friendly with Ida Kaminska son - he resides in NY.

So, please, we should all be on guard not to mislead or be misled by
occasional occurrences. Just because a certain name correlation has
occurred once or twice, it does not establish a rule for genealogists or
scholars of names. Myron may have been a popular name in the first half
of the 20th century for American Jews named Meyer, and Selwyn for Zangwil
(and hence for Samuel), but that does not make them _Jewish_ names.
I am not refering to the americanized names.
What about the names given to the Jewish kids born to Polish or
Russian "not so very tradional families"in 19 and 20 century?

Michael Bernet,
New York
Alexander Sharon
Calgary


Sally Bruckheimer
 

"> When we discuss Jewish names, we should limit
ourselves to names that have a predominantly
Jewish origin, >from the Hebrew Bible, >from the
Hebrew language, >from the Talmud (but even here
there are many non-Jewish nonce names), or direct
translations there>from (e.g. Belinfante and Bonfils
from BenTov and ElemTov, Wolff or Hirsch >from Binyamin
or Naftali, Bondi or Guttentag >from YomTov), or
specifically Jewish Yiddish names.
Why should we?"



Obviously, I agree with Alexander. This is a
genealogy forum after all, not Jewish theology or
onomastics. If my Jewish ancestor was named
Clementine or Christopher, this is the place to talk
about it. We must not restrict ourselves to what
someone thinks is proper Jucaica-we discuss what was.

Belinfante was not a name derived >from some Hebrew
name, but a forced convert's Catholic reference to
Jesus-so it is Jewish genealogy, not a Hebrew-derived
name.

Sally Bruckheimer
Harrison, NY


Israel Zamir <iczamir@...>
 

Excuse me:
I remember a lot of IDA between jewish people in Argentine, mostly
descendentes >from jews >from East Europe.

Ida, and eventually also Aida, where the prefered name for Judith (today
Judith is "good fashion" or of "bonne ton" because it sounds "english",
for argentinian people and argentinian jews...).

But this Judith was also: (Or Ida, or Aida) Iehudit ( in hebrew )
Iehudis ( in Iyydish) Hadassa ( in hebrew: if I'm not wrong the hebrew
equivalent of persian Esther ).... transformed in iyddish Hu-(like "oo"
in English)-dess==Hoodess.

I had a tante-mume-czocza-aunt-tia that went >from Lodz to Buenos Aires,
from Buenos Aires to Rio de Janeiro. and then organized the inmigration of
her relatives in Lodz to South America, before WWII.

Her name was Iehudis,,, but all the familly called her: Hoodess...

This is also a bit >from the story about our "grine kouzines"... .

My excuses for my pour English. Yours!

Israel Zamir
iczamir@mefalsim.org.il
israelzamir@hotmail.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <MBernet@aol.com>
To: "JewishGen Discussion Group" <jewishgen@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: Origin of Ida, a woman's personal name.


In a message dated 2/4/2003 4:04:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
a.sharon@shaw.ca rersponded to my posting

<< I have never come across the name Idalia and had you
> asked me to guess, I would have said it was a countytown in Idaho.
Your late mother-in-law may well be the only bearer of that name. Idalia is
> not mentioned in Beider's dictionary of Ashkenazi given names--but Ida
> is, and it's listed by Beider under Yudes (Judith).

Michael,

Argument that you have never come across the name Idalia or that name
is not in Alexander Beider's dictionary, does not prvide the proof that
name was no adopted by Jewish people.

No, it does not provide proof that it was used here or there, but though
it may have been used by your gransmother or even mine, doesn't make it
into a "Jewish" name any more than Clementine or Clothilde (nor even Myron
and Sheldon, Ignatz or Isidore) are Jewish names just because some or even
many Jews used them...

Ida is a common name in many countries. Among Jews it is derived
predominantly >from forms of Yehudit/Judith; that is its Jewish source.
As a Jewish name it is not an abbreviation of Idaho, Ideal, Idalinka,
Idalina or Ideology. Yehudit/Judith is the only source for the name Ida as
a Jewish name.

Michael Bernet,
New York