Jewish name for Isabelle? #general


Joy Weaver <joyweave@...>
 

While all these posts are flowing about Yiddish or Hebrew names, I
thought this might be a good time to ask about my middle name. I was
named Joyce Isabelle. The Joyce was for my mgm, Sheina/ Jean, and the
Isabelle for my pgf, Isadore/ Yitzak. I was never given a Jewish
equivalent for the middle name. A rabbi once told me I could use
Elisheva, but that doesn't seem to sit right. Any thoughts?

Joy Weaver
East Islip, NY


chaikin <chaikin@...>
 

Joy Weaver, East Islip, NY news@hunter.news.rcn.net asked:


I was named Joyce Isabelle. The Joyce was for my mgm, Sheina/ Jean, and
the Isabelle for my pgf, Isadore/ Yitzak. I was never given a Jewish
equivalent for the middle name. A rabbi once told me I could use Elisheva,
but that doesn't seem to sit right. Any thoughts?

=Izevel is a biblical name >from Phoenician roots.
The Phoenicians ruled the Mediterranean sea since 1500 BCE, and so, I
assume, the name was spread and entered Spain... Or vice versa, it may have
been brought by the Phoenician sailors >from the West of the Mediterranean
sea to Israel, around the 8th century BCE, where it appear in the Bible
(King Achav's mother).
Achav is a very interesting name for genealogy: "Father's brother" :-))

Best regards, Udi Cain, Israel


chaikin <chaikin@...>
 

Please forgive my Froidian mistake:
Izevel was Achav's wife !



Joy Weaver, East Islip, NY news@hunter.news.rcn.net asked:


I was named Joyce Isabelle. The Joyce was for my mgm, Sheina/ Jean, and
the Isabelle for my pgf, Isadore/ Yitzak. I was never given a Jewish
equivalent for the middle name. A rabbi once told me I could use Elisheva,
but that doesn't seem to sit right. Any thoughts?

=Izevel is a biblical name >from Phoenician roots.
The Phoenicians ruled the Mediterranean sea since 1500 BCE, and so, I
assume, the name was spread and entered Spain... Or vice versa, it may have
been brought by the Phoenician sailors >from the West of the Mediterranean
sea to Israel, around the 8th century BCE, where it appear in the Bible
(King Achav's mother).
Achav is a very interesting name for genealogy: "Father's brother" :-))

Best regards, Udi Cain, Israel


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Sun, 9 May 2004 20:03:36 UTC, joyweave@erols.com (Joy Weaver) opined:

While all these posts are flowing about Yiddish or Hebrew names, I
thought this might be a good time to ask about my middle name. I was
named Joyce Isabelle. The Joyce was for my mgm, Sheina/ Jean, and the
Isabelle for my pgf, Isadore/ Yitzak. I was never given a Jewish
equivalent for the middle name. A rabbi once told me I could use
Elisheva, but that doesn't seem to sit right. Any thoughts?

Joy Weaver
East Islip, NY
You may be surprised to learn that "Isabel" is already a Hebrew name, being
an Iberian modification of "Elisheva", i.e. "Elizabeth". Your Rabbi gets a
high score.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com
Please REPLACE the CAPITAL LETTERS with JGEN in order to send me email.
Please do not send me HTML-formatted messages. Please do not send me
attachments without coordinating with me beforehand.


Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

Joy Weaver <joyweave@erols.com> wrote:

While all these posts are flowing about Yiddish or Hebrew names, I
thought this might be a good time to ask about my middle name. I was
named Joyce Isabelle. The Joyce was for my mgm, Sheina/ Jean, and the
Isabelle for my pgf, Isadore/ Yitzak. I was never given a Jewish
equivalent for the middle name. A rabbi once told me I could use
Elisheva, but that doesn't seem to sit right. Any thoughts?
The rabbi is right: Isabelle is one of the many variant forms of
the Hebrew name Elisheva, Elizabeth being the most common English
version. Of course that doesn't have any logical connection with the
name Yitzhak, but then neither does Isadore.

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada


Ida & Joseph Schwarcz <idayosef@...>
 

My cousin Isabelle is named for her grandmother Sarah. Of course Isabelle
sounds like Jezabel which is a biblical name, but you don't want to go that
route.
Ida

Dr. Joseph M. Schwarcz
Dr. Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel

-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:news@hunter.news.rcn.net]On Behalf Of Joy Weaver
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 9:21 PM
To: JewishGen Discussion Group
Subject: Jewish name for Isabelle?

While all these posts are flowing about Yiddish or Hebrew names, I
thought this might be a good time to ask about my middle name. I was
named Joyce Isabelle. The Joyce was for my mgm, Sheina/ Jean, and the
Isabelle for my pgf, Isadore/ Yitzak. I was never given a Jewish
equivalent for the middle name. A rabbi once told me I could use
Elisheva, but that doesn't seem to sit right. Any thoughts?

Joy Weaver
East Islip, NY


E. Snyder <snydee@...>
 

I knew someone named Isabelle and her Hebrew/Yiddish name was Esther Baila.
Hope that helps.
Esther Snyder


chaikin <chaikin@...>
 

Dear all.

I received few replies to my recent posting, and would like to add:

A. Jezebel / Izevel, who was of Phoenician origin, had fought against the
Judeans who believed in god, and tried to convince them to worship Baal and
Ashera (Canaanite gods).
Isabelle, the Spanish queen, was one of the causes for the troubles of the
Jewish people of Spain.
There was a gap of about 2300 years between these two nasty characters, and
nothing seems to have changed :-))

B. Elisheva, which is the Hebrew name for Elisabeth, was the mother of
Achab, and wife of King Solomon.
I don't see any connection between Elisabeth and Isabelle, rather than a
Freudian mistake, made by a rabbi, whose mistake became fact :-))

Best regards,
Udi Cain, Israel


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Tue, 11 May 2004 00:55:05 UTC, chaikin@bezeqint.net (chaikin) opined:

Dear all.

I received few replies to my recent posting, and would like to add:

A. Jezebel / Izevel, who was of Phoenician origin, had fought against the
Judeans who believed in god, and tried to convince them to worship Baal and
Ashera (Canaanite gods).
Isabelle, the Spanish queen, was one of the causes for the troubles of the
Jewish people of Spain.
There was a gap of about 2300 years between these two nasty characters, and
nothing seems to have changed :-))

B. Elisheva, which is the Hebrew name for Elisabeth, was the mother of
Achab, and wife of King Solomon.
I don't see any connection between Elisabeth and Isabelle, rather than a
Freudian mistake, made by a rabbi, whose mistake became fact :-))

Best regards,
Udi Cain, Israel
After breathing deeply several times, I am moved to make the following
reply:

It is not always easy to see how names (or indeed words) change in moving
from one language to another. Specifically, the evolution of "Elisheva" to
"Isabel" is not obvious to an English- or Hebrew-speaker, though it may be
more so to a speaker of Spanish. One possibility is that the name passed
through a stage in which a small child, trying her best to get her tongue
around her four-syllable name, managed a simpler three-syllable version that
stuck with her through life. It may be worthwhile to note that, you can get
from "Elisheva" to "Isabel" by moving the "L" >from the first syllable to the
last (as a small child might do), and remembering that "B" and "V" phonemes
are indistinguishable in many of the languages of the Mediterranean basin
(Spanish, Greek, Hebrew).

The bottom line is that there is no connection whatever between "Isabel" and
"Jezebel", either linguistically or historically.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com
Please REPLACE the CAPITAL LETTERS with JGEN in order to send me email.
Please do not send me HTML-formatted messages. Please do not send me
attachments without coordinating with me beforehand.


Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

In article <003f01c436a2$cbf4dac0$eda75052@udi4b3tuqi4slv>,
chaikin <chaikin@bezeqint.net> wrote:

I don't see any connection between Elisabeth and Isabelle, rather than a
Freudian mistake, made by a rabbi, whose mistake became fact :-))
See for instance

<http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/i/isabel.html>
and
<http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/is/isabel.html>

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Thu, 13 May 2004 16:07:23 UTC, chaikin@bezeqint.net (chaikin) opined:

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca wrote:

See for instance
<http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/i/isabel.html>
and
<http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/is/isabel.html>

=In another site, there is another possibility, to which I referred, and to
me it makes much more sense:
http://www.behindthename.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?terms=isabel&nmd=n&gender=both&operator=or

Best regards,
Udi Cain, Israel
It does indeed make a lot of sense. What it says is:

===
Most likely a medieval Spanish form of Elizabeth, although some theories
state that Isabel actually derives >from an old Semitic name meaning
"daughter of Baal".
===

The crucial difference >from what you said is that it gives the most
probable, most generally accepted, and most defensible derivation, and then
offers the admitted fact that there are some people who favor the "Jezebel"
explanation. The site is clearly not propounding it as fact,

It has been remarked to me in a private communication that the latter is a
"traditional explanation" of the derivation of the name. "Traditional
explanation" here can *only* be understood as meaning "folk etymology". That
is, a person unfamiliar with the history of a word (or name), without access
to documentation of its development over time or interest in the same, can
be forgiven for jumping to the conclusion that current phonetic resemblance
is a reliable guide to the origin of the word/name.

Folk etymologies are notoriously unreliable, although they may "make much
more sense" on cursory view.

I can give an example: I once participated in a newsgroup devoted to
New-Kingdom Egyptian language (i.e. >from the centuries that included the
Exodus >from Egypt), in which I was the only participant grounded in Hebrew.
In one discussion, another person told me that, in his opinion, the name
"Abraham" was derived >from the name of the Hindu god Brahma, and that the
Jewish mourning custom of "Shiva" was derived >from that of the Hindu god of
the same name. Because the latter is the god of destruction and
regeneration, the transition seemed quite reasonable for a mourning custom;
Brahma being the source of all being, his name is appropriate for a
Patriarch; and the orthographic evidence (especially after transliteration
to a Latin alphabet) seemed to him overwhelming -- all in all, his idea
"makes much sense".

It doesn't to you and me, of course, because we have much more knowledge
than he did

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com
Please REPLACE the CAPITAL LETTERS with JGEN in order to send me email.
Please do not send me HTML-formatted messages. Please do not send me
attachments without coordinating with me beforehand.


chaikin <chaikin@...>
 

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca wrote:

See for instance
<http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/i/isabel.html>
and
<http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/is/isabel.html>

=In another site, there is another possibility, to which I referred, and to
me it makes much more sense:
http://www.behindthename.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?terms=isabel&nmd=n&gender=both&operator=or

Best regards,
Udi Cain, Israel

p.s.
In my recent note I made a mistake, due to hard work on few matters late at
night, and ask your forgiveness: Elisheva was Aaron's wife and not
Solomon's.