Topics

First Jews in England #general


David Kravitz
 

"Evertjan Hannivoort wrote

The first Jewish families arived in Britain perhaps with the Phoenicians,
far more tha 2000 years ago, as Simon Goulden of the United Synagogue
writes here: Daf Hashavua 23/9/2000 <http://tinyurl.com/7ts5n>

Or else they surely came with the Roman conquest, but even if they did
arrive with William the conqueror as late as 1066, your expectation of
great genealogical resources is not very reasonable. ;-} " <<

The Jews of England were kicked out and only returned after Oliver Cromwell
invited them back. The oldest synagogue in England is Sephardic, dating >from
1702, and is still very much in use today despite, not the least, an IRA
bomb. I understand that they hold very good records going back 300 years.
The oldest Ashkenazi synagogue >from this period is in Plymouth going back
250 years and I am sure they, too, have some records.

David Kravitz
Netanya, Israel


Yisrael Asper
 

There were Jews in England before the Norman conquest but after the Norman
conquest the Jews who were already in England found themselves culturally and
otherwise taken over by the French Jews. The English Jews had French names and
so on. After the Expulsion of the Jews >from England Marranos came to England.
Cromwell never was able to give the Jews a formal revocation of the 1290
Expulsion making then Rabbi Menashe ben Israel feel like a failure in his efforts.
What Cromwell did was to make it that Jews no longer had to pretend hey were
Christians to be in England. He simply recognized the Jewish community's
existence. It seems to have been the best he could do.

Yisrael Asper
yisraelasper@comcast.net
Pittsburgh PA

"Evertjan Hannivoort wrote

The first Jewish families arived in Britain perhaps with the Phoenicians,
far more tha 2000 years ago, as Simon Goulden of the United Synagogue
writes here: Daf Hashavua 23/9/2000 <http://tinyurl.com/7ts5n>

Or else they surely came with the Roman conquest, but even if they did
arrive with William the conqueror as late as 1066, your expectation of
great genealogical resources is not very reasonable. ;-} " <<

The Jews of England were kicked out and only returned after Oliver Cromwell
invited them back. The oldest synagogue in England is Sephardic, dating >from
1702, and is still very much in use today despite, not the least, an IRA
bomb. I understand that they hold very good records going back 300 years.
The oldest Ashkenazi synagogue >from this period is in Plymouth going back
250 years and I am sure they, too, have some records.

David Kravitz
Netanya, Israel


Evertjan. <exjxw.hannivoort@...>
 

David Kravitz wrote on 17 jul 2005 in soc.genealogy.jewish:

"Evertjan Hannivoort wrote

The first Jewish families arived in Britain perhaps with the
Phoenicians, far more tha 2000 years ago, as Simon Goulden of the
United Synagogue writes here: Daf Hashavua 23/9/2000
<http://tinyurl.com/7ts5n>

Or else they surely came with the Roman conquest, but even if they did
arrive with William the conqueror as late as 1066, your expectation of
great genealogical resources is not very reasonable. ;-} " <<

The Jews of England were kicked out and only returned after Oliver
Cromwell invited them back. The oldest synagogue in England is
Sephardic, dating >from 1702, and is still very much in use today
despite, not the least, an IRA bomb. I understand that they hold very
good records going back 300 years. The oldest Ashkenazi synagogue from
this period is in Plymouth going back 250 years and I am sure they,
too, have some records.
David, the fact they were kicked out strengthens my thesis in that the
1702 sephardim where not the first.

Why do you think that before the fimal kick-out of 1395 they had no
synagogues? Only because of lack of evidence?

The below maps are no proof, of cource, but are a nice visualisation:

<http://www.routledge.com/textbooks/0415236614/resources/maps/map32.jpg>
<http://www.routledge.com/textbooks/0415236614/resources/maps/map36.jpg>
<http://www.routledge.com/textbooks/0415236614/resources/maps/map38.jpg>

--
Evertjan Hannivoort.
The Netherlands.
(Replace all crosses with dots in my emailaddress)


MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/17/2005 1:02:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net adds is own comments to a series of other comments
on hi topic (sorry, I can't figure ot the various authors

The first Jewish families arived in Britain perhaps with the
Phoenicians, far more tha 2000 years ago, as Simon Goulden of the
United Synagogue writes here: Daf Hashavua 23/9/2000
<http://tinyurl.com/7ts5n>

Or else they surely came with the Roman conquest, but even if they did
arrive with William the conqueror as late as 1066, your expectation of
great genealogical resources is not very reasonable. ;-} " <<

The Jews of England were kicked out and only returned after Oliver
Cromwell invited them back. The oldest synagogue in England is
Sephardic, dating >from 1702, and is still very much in use today
despite, not the least, an IRA bomb. I understand that they hold very
good records going back 300 years. The oldest Ashkenazi synagogue from
this period is in Plymouth going back 250 years and I am sure they,
too, have some records.
Ervetjan commented:

< David, the fact they were kicked out strengthens my thesis in that the
1702 sephardim where not the first.

< Why do you think that before the fimal kick-out of 1395 they had no
synagogues? Only because of lack of evidence? >

My comments:
==I missed out on that discussion on synagogues. But I do know this: the
Jews were brutally expelled >from England in 1290, and there was no Jewish
community there in 1395. Bevis Marks was built n 1701 but there hd been earlier
Sephardi synagogues and the first Ashkenazi synagogue in London was inaugurated
in 1690.

==These first English Jews came mostly >from northern France, and followed
northern French Jewish customs. Some came >from came >from Italy and Germany,
and some others fro Spain, Russia, and the Muslim countries. They had
communities in London, Lincoln, Winchester, York, Oxford, Norwich, Exeter,
Bristol, Gloucester, Bury St. Edmunds, Dunstable, King's Lynn, Stamford,
Northampton.
The King setup special registries for loans granted by Jews to Gentiles, in
every Jewish community--26 registries altogether!

==English Jews in the Middle Ages served essentially as bankers to the
nobility, and initially enjoyed the Royal Court' s protection. There were also
some outstanding Jewish scholars, peytanim and rabbis. An enormous font of
information is available about these Jews, both >from Jewish sources and >from the
meticulous record keeping of the English at that time.

Michael Bernet, New York,


amfox <amfox@...>
 

Although the Jews were indeed expelled, modern scholarship (as popularised
by Michael Wood in his book and recent TV series on William Shakespeare)
suggests that some Jews, both conversos and others, lingered on; and one of
them, Emilia Bassano, one of a family of Jewish musicians of Venetian
origin, has been suggested as one candidate for the Dark Lady of the Sonnets
and as a model for some aspects of the various Jewesses portrayed by
Shakespeare. Shakespeare seems to have known Jews. There is also a
suggestion that Shakespeare and Emilia were more than "just good friends" -
but the important point of genealogical concern is that it is likely that
England never became completely free of Jews.

Mervyn Fox
amfox@rogers.com

The Jews of England were kicked out and only returned after Oliver
Cromwell invited them back. The oldest synagogue in England is
Sephardic, dating >from 1702, and is still very much in use today
despite, not the least, an IRA bomb. I understand that they
hold very good records going back 300 years. The oldest Ashkenazi
synagogue >from this period is in Plymouth going back 250 years and I
am sure they, too, have some records.
David, the fact they were kicked out strengthens my thesis in
that the 1702 sephardim where not the first. Why do you think that before
the fimal kick-out of 1395 they had no synagogues? Only because of lack
of evidence?

Evertjan Hannivoort.
The Netherlands.
(Replace all crosses with dots in my emailaddress)


MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/17/2005 1:03:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
yisraelasper@comcast.net writes:

< There were Jews in England before the Norman conquest but after the
Norman conquest the Jews who were already in England found themselves culturally
and otherwise taken over by the French Jews. >

==I'm surprised by this. I grew up in England and was educated (many decades
ago) at Jewish academic high schools, but have ever before heard this. I
just checked the Enc Jud to get more information, and there learned that
England was among the last countries in medieval Europe where Jews settled.
There is mention of a possibility that "a small nucleus" of Jew may have lived
there under the Romans, and that in the Saxon period, "isolated Jews extended
their commercial activities as far as the British Isles". The EJ adds that the
"slender evidence" formerly adduced in support" of this belief "has no
validity."

==The Author of this section, incidentally, was British-Jewish
academician-historia Cecil Roth, an authority on British Jews if ever there was
one, who served as senior editor in Jerusalem of the Encyclopedia Judaica. There
is no on further information in the latest update (CD ROM edition) about original
Jewish settlement in England

==I'd really be excited to learn of recently discovered support for the
belief that there was a Jewish community in Enland before 1066.


Michael Bernet, New York,


Yisrael Asper
 

No according to what I read there were Jews in England before but not enough to
dominate over the incomming French Jews. For all practical purposes the Jewish
community of Engand started with the Norman conquest. They even developed their
own branch of the French Nusach called Nusach HaEh.
Yisrael Asper
yisraelasper@comcast.net
Pittsburgh PA

In a message dated 7/17/2005 1:03:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
yisraelasper@comcast.net writes:

< There were Jews in England before the Norman conquest but after the Norman
conquest the Jews who were already in England found themselves culturally and
otherwise taken over by the French Jews. >

==I'm surprised by this. I grew up in England and was educated (many decades
ago) at Jewish academic high schools, but have ever before heard this. I
just checked the Enc Jud to get more information, and there learned that
England was among the last countries in medieval Europe where Jews settled.
There is mention of a possibility that "a small nucleus" of Jew may have lived
there under the Romans, and that in the Saxon period, "isolated Jews extended
their commercial activities as far as the British Isles". The EJ adds that the
"slender evidence" formerly adduced in support" of this belief "has no
validity."


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"David Kravitz" <david_kravitz@hotmail.com> wrote
"Evertjan Hannivoort wrote

The first Jewish families arived in Britain perhaps with the Phoenicians,
far more tha 2000 years ago, as Simon Goulden of the United Synagogue
writes here: Daf Hashavua 23/9/2000 <http://tinyurl.com/7ts5n>

Or else they surely came with the Roman conquest, but even if they did
arrive with William the conqueror as late as 1066, your expectation of
great genealogical resources is not very reasonable. ;-} " <<

The Jews of England were kicked out and only returned after Oliver
Cromwell invited them back. The oldest synagogue in England is Sephardic,
dating >from 1702, and is still very much in use today despite, not the
least, an IRA bomb. I understand that they hold very good records going
back 300 years. The oldest Ashkenazi synagogue >from this period is in
Plymouth going back 250 years and I am sure they, too, have some records.
See this Bibliography of Anglo-Jewry history >from the Jewish History Society
of England
http://www.jhse.org/html/body_bibliography.html

See http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1190richard1-charterjews.html
Medieval Sourcebook: Richard I of England: Charter by Which Many Liberties
are Granted and Confirmed to the Jews, 22 March, 1190

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1170excheq-usury.html
Medieval Sourcebook: >from the Dialogue of the Exchequer: On Usury, c.1170

and others

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1173stedmunds-jews.html
Medieval Sourcebook: The Abbey of St. Edmund's and the Jews, 1173-1182

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1173williamnorwich.html
Medieval Sourcebook: Thomas of Monmouth: The Life and Miracles of St.
William of Norwich, 1173

The Footsteps of Israel: Understanding Jews in Anglo-Saxon England, by
Andrew P. Scheil. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2004. See
http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472114085-fm.pdf for contents.

The description of this book makes clear that this was without Saxon
England's personal experience of Jews.

There is the Jews Court in Lincoln
http://www.lincolnshirepast.org.uk/Jews_court.htm.

Discussion about a possible medieval synagogue in Guildford
http://tinyurl.com/75sz2
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba12/ba12news.html says that Guildford is the
only known site of a medieval synagogue.

Also http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba18/ba18lets.html

http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/hereford_history.htm about the medieval Jewish
community in Hereford.

Reference to the remains of a medieval synagogue in Canterbury
http://www.spiroark.org/chatam_rochester_sheerness.htm

http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/england_history.htm says that a few Jews came
from Roman times onwards, the majority came with William the Conqueror from
Rouen in France.

--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> wrote
David Kravitz wrote on 17 jul 2005 in soc.genealogy.jewish:

"Evertjan Hannivoort wrote

The first Jewish families arived in Britain perhaps with the
Phoenicians, far more tha 2000 years ago, as Simon Goulden of the
United Synagogue writes here: Daf Hashavua 23/9/2000
http://tinyurl.com/7ts5n
I know of Simon Goulden (he goes to my father's synagogue) and he is not a
historian - he is just reporting on what some historians believe but until
the Norman Conquest he is just speculating. He is Director for the Agency of
Jewish Education in London, and his speculation is of the type that one
might give school pupils to imagine. No evidence is presented.


Or else they surely came with the Roman conquest, but even if they did
arrive with William the conqueror as late as 1066, your expectation of
great genealogical resources is not very reasonable. ;-} " <<

The Jews of England were kicked out and only returned after Oliver
Cromwell invited them back. The oldest synagogue in England is
Sephardic, dating >from 1702, and is still very much in use today
despite, not the least, an IRA bomb. I understand that they hold very
good records going back 300 years. The oldest Ashkenazi synagogue from
this period is in Plymouth going back 250 years and I am sure they,
too, have some records.
David, the fact they were kicked out strengthens my thesis in that the
1702 sephardim where not the first.
This says that the oldest surviving synagogue is Bevis Marks, not that they
didn't have synagogues.


Why do you think that before the fimal kick-out of 1395 they had no
synagogues? Only because of lack of evidence?
http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/pre-1290/background.htm "Historical
Background and Glossary of Terms in connection with the Jewish Communities
of England & Wales prior to 1290"

http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/pre-1290/list_alpha.htm "Jewish communities
prior to 1290"

Synagogues are mentioned in:

York
Canterbury
Winchester
Oxford
Guildford
Bristol
Gloucester
Cambridge
Norwich
Bury St Edmunds
London

See http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1168israelitebishop.html "Medieval
Sourcebook:
An Israelite Bishop without Guile (ca. 1168)".

According to this page the term "Bishop" is how the Dayanim or Judges of the
Beth Din or Ecclesiastical Court were described (by non-Jews). These
presumably would have had to have been rabbis of synagogues.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1299jewsarchpriest.html "Medieval
Sourcebook:
Appointment of an Archpriest of the Jews in England, July 1199"

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/kingjohn-jews.html "Medieval
Sourcebook:
King John of England and the Jews"

Again mentions Judges.

--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Schelly Talalay Dardashti
 

Further to this discussion.
About six weeks ago, one of my JFRA Israel members
(Ra'anana branch), David Schulman brought a book
called "The Lost Jews of Cornwall" to his presentation
on the early Jews of England.
I only had time to take a cursory glance, but found it
fascinating. Sorry I cannot provide the author's name.
The focus is on a lost period of Jewish involvement in
Cornwall area mining, with examples of terms used in
mining operations, all referring to Jews in some
manner.
Perhaps one of our UK members might be able to provide
more information on this volume and the general
contents.

Best wishes,
Schelly Talalay Dardashti
Now temporarily in New York City
schelly@allrelative.net


Evertjan. <exjxw.hannivoort@...>
 

Schelly Talalay Dardashti wrote on 19 jul 2005 in soc.genealogy.jewish:

"The Lost Jews of Cornwall" to his presentation
on the early Jews of England.
I only had time to take a cursory glance, but found it
fascinating. Sorry I cannot provide the author's name.
Edited by Godfrey Simmons, Keith Pearce and Helen Fry

see for the content:
< http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/community/exe/newsletter/jewscornwall.htm >

And 66 other links:
< http://www.google.com/search?q=The.Lost.Jews.of.Cornwall >


--
Evertjan Hannivoort.
The Netherlands.
(Replace all crosses with dots in my emailaddress)


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Evertjan." < exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net > wrote:

Schelly Talalay Dardashti wrote on 19 jul 2005 in soc.genealogy.jewish:

"The Lost Jews of Cornwall" to his presentation
on the early Jews of England.
I only had time to take a cursory glance, but found it
fascinating. Sorry I cannot provide the author's name.
Edited by Godfrey Simmons, Keith Pearce and Helen Fry

see for the content:

http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/community/exe/newsletter/jewscornwall.htm

And 66 other links:
< http://www.google.com/search?q=The.Lost.Jews.of.Cornwall >
The title is a crowdpuller but it refers to the period 1720-1913. Clearly
these are not known to the vast majority of metropolitan UK Jews, but there
were synagogues in many of the small towns all over England eg Exeter,
Plymouth, and Bristol.

There is, I presume, the story of the tinkers who went round to the (I
presume) Jews Houses and they would mark their pots in such a way that they
would know whether a non-Jew had used them and therefore made them treif (ie
not kosher).

The late Rabbi Bernard Susser did a lot of work on the history of the Jews
of the South-West.

There is also a fairly recent book about the Jews of Bristol, in which my
father briefly features in a post-War anti-fascist committee.


--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:44:09 UTC, dardasht1@yahoo.com (Schelly Talalay
Dardashti) opined:

Further to this discussion.
About six weeks ago, one of my JFRA Israel members
(Ra'anana branch), David Schulman brought a book
called "The Lost Jews of Cornwall" to his presentation
on the early Jews of England.
I only had time to take a cursory glance, but found it
fascinating. Sorry I cannot provide the author's name.
The focus is on a lost period of Jewish involvement in
Cornwall area mining, with examples of terms used in
mining operations, all referring to Jews in some manner.
Perhaps one of our UK members might be able to provide
more information on this volume and the general contents.
A visit to the Amazon site showed that the complete title is "The lost
Jews of Cornwall: >from the Middle Ages to the nineteenth century", no
mention is made of an author, although probably there is one. ISBN:
1900178273. The book is not large, 344 pages, and Amazon points at
three used/rare-book dealers that have a copy. All are said to be in
good or very good condition, and the going price is about $100,
depending on condition. The publisher is Redcliffe, and the date of
publication is 2000.

--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel

MODERATOR NOTE: This is a one-time sales mention of a new book of relevance
to Jewish genealogy, as permitted by JewishGen's posting guidelines
< http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/rules.htm >.


Jules Levin
 

At 03:24 PM 7/19/2005, you wrote:

The title is a crowdpuller but it refers to the period 1720-1913. Clearly
these are not known to the vast majority of metropolitan UK Jews, but there
were synagogues in many of the small towns all over England eg Exeter,
Plymouth, and Bristol.
A similar situation to the United States, where there were Jewish
cemeteries and synagogues in small towns, esp. in the South, but across
America. I remember a discussion on a different Jewish list many years ago
contrasting the deplorable state of a large Jewish cemetery in Brooklyn,
surrounded by 1-2 million Jews in a 50 mile radius, with the lovingly
preserved and tended small Jewish cemeteries in Southern towns without any
Jews.
Jules Levin
Los Angeles


Jonathan Allen <jonathan@...>
 

Nick < tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
The title is a crowdpuller but it refers to the period 1720-1913. Clearly
these are not known to the vast majority of metropolitan UK Jews, but there
were synagogues in many of the small towns all over England eg Exeter,
Plymouth, and Bristol.
There still *are* synagogues in Exeter, Plymouth and Bristol, although
only the latter has a diversity (Orthodox and Progressive/Liberal) and
rabbis. Plymouth has services each Shabbat morning and Exeter alternates
between Orthodox and Progressive style services and leadership.

Jonathan


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Jonathan Allen" <jonathan@barumtrading.co.uk> wrote

Nick < tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
The title is a crowdpuller but it refers to the period 1720-1913. Clearly
these are not known to the vast majority of metropolitan UK Jews, but there
were synagogues in many of the small towns all over England eg Exeter,
Plymouth, and Bristol.
There still *are* synagogues in Exeter, Plymouth and Bristol, although
only the latter has a diversity (Orthodox and Progressive/Liberal) and
rabbis. Plymouth has services each Shabbat morning and Exeter alternates
between Orthodox and Progressive style services and leadership.
That was not my point. And I then should have chosen places where there are
not now synagogues eg Falmouth. Like the Asian population in England today,
and the Jews in South Africa (see the book by the author/emeritus professor
of English Dan Jacobson) the Jews were shopkeepers/traders and you have to
go where the business is.

http://www.jewishgen.org/cemetery/brit/england.html lists the following
places as having cemeteries or Jewish burials post-1656:

Bath
Birmingham
Brighton
Bristol:
Chatham: Kent
Cheltenham:
Cornwall:
Darlington:
Durham: See Newcastle Upon Tyne And Sunderland
Exeter: (Devon)
Falmouth:
Gateshead:
Gloucester:
Great Yarmouth , Norfolk
Grimsby:
Hartlepool:
Honiton, Devon
Hull: Humberside
Ipswich :
King's Lynn:
Leeds:
Liverpool :
Manchester:
Middlesbrough:
Newcastle Upon Tyne
Northampton: Kent ??
Norwich:
North Shields
Oxford :
Penzance:
Plymouth:
Portsmouth & Southsea: (Hants)
Preston: Lancs
Ramsgate:
Sheffield:
Southampton:
Southend & Westcliff: (Essex)
South Shields
Southwold: Suffolk
Stockton:
Sunderland:
Surrey:
Whitley Bay:

It doesn't mention >from my own knowledge

Reading
Nottingham
Cardiff
Bangor
Bognor, West Sussex

At times, particularly during the War, communities were set up elsewhere eg
Bedford, Luton, Letchworth (see the recent correspondence in the London JC).

This is not exhaustive.

--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

Further to what Stan Goodman "The lost Jews of Cornwall: >from the Middle
Ages to the nineteenth century" is edited by Godfrey Simmons, Keith Pearce
and Helen Fry and can be purchased at GBP13.95 >from a bookshop rather than
the 100GBP that he mentioned.

--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)