Jews in England: Jewish star with a cross inside #general


dotvic <dotvic@...>
 

Apropos to this subject I'd like to ask if anyone has knowledge of a Jewish
star with a cross inside? I found this engraved on a tombstone in Wales.
The graveyard was very, very old, overgrown with nettles and other weeds.

I was struck dumb by this sight. If I remember right the name on the stone
wasn't typically Jewish but that might not mean anything.

Many years later I saw the same symbol, a sixpointed star with a cross in
it, painted on the side of a hippy Volkswagon bus.

Dorothy AUERBACH Rivers

Tucson, Arizona USA


Avrum Lapin
 

At 1:00 AM -0500 7/21/05, JewishGen Discussion Group digest wrote:

Subject: Jews in England: Jewish star with a cross inside
From: dotvic < dotvic@earthlink.net >
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:06:40 -0700
X-Message-Number: 4

Apropos to this subject I'd like to ask if anyone has knowledge of a Jewish
star with a cross inside? I found this engraved on a tombstone in Wales.
The graveyard was very, very old, overgrown with nettles and other weeds.

I was struck dumb by this sight. If I remember right the name on the stone
wasn't typically Jewish but that might not mean anything.

Many years later I saw the same symbol, a sixpointed star with a cross in
it, painted on the side of a hippy Volkswagon bus.
There is a large Mogen David stained window on a large church (Santa
Crocce) in Florence. The best explanation is that at the time the
church was designed "looks" were more important than being PC and the
architect went for what looked good (You can see a picture on the
cover of Rick Steve's book Italy 2005)

--
Avrum Lapin, of Upland, CA
avrum113@earthlink.net

Researching:
LAPIN Grodno
LAPUNSKI Grodno,Indura and Sokolka
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Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:40:24 UTC, avrum223@verizon.net (Avrum Lapin)
opined:

At 1:00 AM -0500 7/21/05, JewishGen Discussion Group digest wrote:
There is a large Mogen David stained window on a large church (Santa
Crocce) in Florence. The best explanation is that at the time the
church was designed "looks" were more important than being PC and the
architect went for what looked good (You can see a picture on the
cover of Rick Steve's book Italy 2005)
No, the reason for the appearance of the Magen David is not aesthetic,
nor has it anything to do with the absence of "PC". Its representation
in stained glass in Florence is not at all unusual. For example, it
occurs several times on the mosaic dome of the chapel of the Catholic
University of America, in Washington. Catholics will tell you that it
is the symbol of Mary, mother of Jesus (never mind that it became a
Jewish symbol only in the medieval era); it is therefore a
manifestation of Christian triumphalism, of which there are many
others. The Christian cross within the Magen David simply emphasizes
the basic message.

Travellers to Lomza can see another manifestation in one on the
churches near the Stary Rynek (the old market square), where the
tetragrammaton (four-letter name of God) appears on the wall in very
large Hebrew characters. Yet another one is very prominent in Prague,
on the Karlovy Most (Charles Bridge), where there is a large cross
bearing a life-size crucified Jesus, above which is the Hebrew
inscription "Holy. Holy, Holy is the Lord God of Armies" (sic: the
correct translation); this was erected there for the express purpose
of demonstrating to the Jewish population the triumph of Christianiy
over Judaism.

--
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In a message dated 7/22/2005 9:12:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
llepore@comcast.net writes:

< I didn't know about them, so I found this site - one
among many after searching at google for messianic.

< This page has a brief definition of Messianic religious groups -
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsmessianic2.htm?ter
ms=messianic
[or http://tinyurl.com/c85w3 -- Mod.]

< Apparently there was a Messianic movement in Europe in the 1600's
_http://rabbiwein.com/column-209.html_ (http://rabbiwein.com/column-209.html)
>

==There have been some 1930 years of attempts to convince Jews to accept
Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah. In the early decades, it was suggested by
Christian missionaries that Jews could continue with their religious practices
while accepting Christian beliefs. In later centuries, such acts as
circumcision, even lighting candles on Friday evenings, might expose a supposed
Jewish convert to Christianity to dispossession, torture, or death at the stake.

==The idea that Jews be permitted after baptism to identify with their
people or their historical religious practices did not really return before the
19th century--and even then in very restricted areas of society and geography.

==In 1731, Jews first settled in Swansea, Wales, and they organized a
community in 1768. The Cardiff community was established in 1840. I doubt very
much that the Welsh were interested in converting Welsh Jews, much less in
establishing messianic congregations.

==I think it's highly unlikely that the six-pointed star, so popular a
symbol in so many cultures and religions, had any Jewish connections in an old,
old cemetery in the wilds of Wales.

==There was a vintner named Hoshea in Second Temple era Judea who sealed his
wine jugs with swastikas embellishing his name. In the 2nd-3rd century
synagogue at Kfar Nahum (Capernaum), near the point where the Jordan flows into
the Sea of Galilee, a magen david and a swastika were placed side by side. I
doubt we can say either of these is related to Nazism. If you look hard enough,
I'm sure you'll find some 18th or 19th century Jewish relic decorated with a
row of swastikas--but that is no indicator that these Jews were anti-semites.

In my opinion, the likelihood that the juxtaposition of magen David and
cross in an ancient Welsh cemetery has a combined Judeo-Christian significance,
is very, very close to zero.

Michael Bernet, New York


Lisa Lepore <llepore@...>
 

Dorothy -

I thought your question was interesting, so I went
looking for an answer. I found pages with religious
jewelry that identify it as a symbol of the Messianics.

I didn't know about them, so I found this site - one
among many after searching at google for messianic.

This page has a brief definition of Messianic religious groups -
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsmessianic2.htm?terms=messianic
[or http://tinyurl.com/c85w3 -- Mod.]

Apparently there was a Messianic movement in Europe in the 1600's
http://rabbiwein.com/column-209.html

Maybe someone else can shed more light on this subject.

Lisa
llepore@comcast.net
Mendon, MA

Apropos to this subject I'd like to ask if anyone has knowledge of a Jewish
star with a cross inside? I found this engraved on a tombstone in Wales.
The graveyard was very, very old, overgrown with nettles and other weeds.

I was struck dumb by this sight. If I remember right the name on the stone
wasn't typically Jewish but that might not mean anything.

Many years later I saw the same symbol, a sixpointed star with a cross in
it, painted on the side of a hippy Volkswagon bus.

Dorothy AUERBACH Rivers

Tucson, Arizona USA
---
Sender: Dorothy Auerbach Rivers <dotvic@earthlink.net>


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Avrum Lapin" <avrum223@verizon.net> wrote in message

There is a large Mogen David stained window on a large church (Santa
Crocce) in Florence. The best explanation is that at the time the church
was designed "looks" were more important than being PC and the architect
went for what looked good (You can see a picture on the cover of Rick
Steve's book Italy 2005)
See
http://tinyurl.com/c42zo
for a picture of Santa Crocce. It is my own view that such stars are not
that unusual. It is the easiest to draw geometric shape which (the circle
and the hexagon are easily drawn with a piece of string.

I did a Google search on "6-pointed star" and church, I get 1,600 results.
70,000 results for "Star of David" and church.

There is an article
http://tinyurl.com/dossv

Apparently there is a Star of David in
http://www.stmarks.on.ca/about/windows.html in St Mark's Church, Brantford,
Ontario which is acknowledged as such. I would say that one of the donors is
either Jewish or of Jewish origin.

This church supplier http://www.churchstewardship.com/coinfolders.htm sells
an offering box with a 6-pointed star on each side.

According to nationmaster.com the Star of David is used by the Mormons.

See also this church
http://buten.net/max/sicily/55_siracusa/StarOfDavid0342.html

See also the Bolton Priory Church in the UK
http://www.enicholl.com/bolton-priory-church/html-files/east-wall-paintings.htm
which is explicitly described as the Star of David to represent the lineage
of Jesus.

Ditto the regimental church of the Black Watch Regiment of Canada.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)

MODERATOR NOTE: The article at http://tinyurl.com/dossv presents one
Christian's description of the Star of David and also refers to the
Messianic version with the cross. If anyone has historical information
about the star with the cross that would help explain why it would
appear in an old cemetery (as mentioned by Dorothy Auerbach Rivers),
please send it in.