Jewish or English? #general


hekenvin@...
 

This message was posted on jewishgen:

"Tell me, would the Jews in England, whether they had been their for a couple of
centuries or not.....If they came to America, say in 1700's, would they have been
considered English or Jewish, as far as records were concerned or as far as their
descendents were concerned?"

The emigres would be considered English people of the Jewish faith.

Judaism is a religion. Some would say it is a culture or a way of life; but it
is not a nationality.

We fought for years to dissuade the Soviets >from putting "Jewish" on the
"nationality" line of Soviet internal passports, a divisive practice that made
it so much easier for anti-Semites to discriminate against Jews.

Helene Kenvin

MODERATOR NOTE: The question was about the early American record-keeping
and not about broad definitions of what it means to be Jewish or about
Judaism being a religion and/or nationality.


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

< hekenvin@bellsouth.net > wrote:

This message was posted on jewishgen:

"Tell me, would the Jews in England, whether they had been their for a couple of
centuries or not.....If they came to America, say in 1700's, would they have been
considered English or Jewish, as far as records were concerned or as far as their
descendents were concerned?"

The emigres would be considered English people of the Jewish faith.

Judaism is a religion. Some would say it is a culture or a way of life; but it
is not a nationality.
See this article
http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us:8080/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/midcol.htm on The
Middle Colonies as the Birthplace of American Religious Pluralism
by Prof Patricia U. Bonomi of New York State University.

It says that these colonies brought settlers >from the areas of Europe that
had been deeply disrupted by the Protestant Reformation.

Unlike England, the borders of these States would have been changed
continuously (I think) by these ructions.

I used to work on the ethnic minorities in London. There were successive
arrivals of Huegenots, Jews, Irish and now South Asians (of various
religions) (Indians, Pakistanis and Banglandeshis).

Some of these descriptions are religious (Jews and Huegenots - which only
came >from France).

Irish was prior to earlier in the last century a geographic location and not
a national location - of course, it was a euphemism for Catholic.

If we go back to the American situation, before 1871 Germany didn't exist
and probably most of the other European nation states didn't exist.

Given that the population of the American colonies were generally fleeing
religious persecution they were also likely to be thought of as belonging to
the religious community to which they belonged, much as the Jews would have
been.

Anyway the number of Jews in North America in the Eighteenth Century was
miniscule. They had only arrived back in England in 1656 after all - they
weren't going to be getting on the plane a generation later, as happens
today.

England was only united with Scotland under the British Crown in 1601.
Ireland was only included in 1801 (I think). So I suspect that the term
British was a political one which specifically referred to the Crown, the
Government or its agents, after all in those days many soldiers were
mercenaries anyway.

If we look at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British it says that it
refers to the Kingdom of Great Britain 1707 to 1801 and people >from there.

It also says that it refers to the people with allegiance to the British
Empire.

http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/OakViewES/harris/97-98/america/colonization/colonies-
middle/index.html
(a school website) specifically refers to the Quakers and the
Pennsylvania-Dutch, and Scotch-Irish settlements.

William Penn is described as a Quaker.

The Pilgrim Fathers were, after all, a branch of the Puritans.

I gather there were people who were actually banned >from Puritan colonies
(presumably because of their beliefs!).

The school website refers to both the British and English army. The
Americans are either Americans or patriots.

In this article about the Middle Colonies
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_059400_middlecoloni.htm
a list of the colonists includes Dutch Calvinists, Scandinavian Lutherans,
German Baptists, Swiss Pietists, Welsh Quakers, French Huguenots, Scots
Presbyterians - note the linkage of geographic area and religion.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 04:40:09 UTC, hekenvin@bellsouth.net opined:

This message was posted on jewishgen:

"Tell me, would the Jews in England, whether they had been their for a couple of
centuries or not.....If they came to America, say in 1700's, would they have been
considered English or Jewish, as far as records were concerned or as far as their
descendents were concerned?"

The emigres would be considered English people of the Jewish faith.

Judaism is a religion. Some would say it is a culture or a way of life; but it
is not a nationality.
That may be too rigid a statement. Until recently, Israeli ID
documents carried rubrics for both religion and nationality, so
"Jewish by nationality" is not inherenly wrong. The latter, for Jews,
was "Yehudit", "Jewish". The Western concept of "religion" does not
encompass all of Judaism. For Arabs, religion was "Muslim" or
"Christian" (the latter further divided by confession), and the
nationality was "Arab". The two clsasifications are not congruent.

The Soviet sin was not in defining jewish nationality (they did the
same with respect to each and every one of the many minorities (and
major groups as well) in the Soviet Union. It was in making use of the
definition for imposing civil disabilities upon Soviet citizens of
Jewish nationality.

I would wager that Jews arriving in the colonies >from Britain in the
eighteenth century would have been considered as Englishmen or Jews
depending upon both the Jew in question and the observing colonist.
But if the timeframe of the question is before American independence,
there is no question that a British subject remained a British subject
upon migration >from England to America.

"Nationality" means something rather different in the US, where it is
understood to mean citizenship and nothing more. That isn't true in
most other parts.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the
URL is:
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For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
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Yisrael Asper
 

The truth is that being Jewish is both a religious and ethnic classification
depending on context. Nationality is not really a good description as the Jews
have since the First Exile in Babylon always had a Diaspora. The peculiar Jewish
situation stems >from the time when every people had its own religion. There were
even more local deities too. When someone moved to a new place he adopted the
faith of the place. So when NonJews moved to Ancient Israel they became Jewish.
The difference was Judaism rejected other gods and so could survive in Exile. We
started the concept of absolute religion/ethics as opposed to pleasing local
deities with differing demands. If it were as simple as Religion or Ethnicity
we would not be having anything to discuss. No one calls the at least global
Catholic community an ethnic group.
Yisrael Asper
yisraelasper@comcast.net
Pittsburgh PA


MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/21/2005 3:12:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk writes:

< If we go back to the American situation, before 1871 Germany didn't exist
and probably most of the other European nation states didn't exist. >

==Germany did not exist as a unified nation before then but it did exist as
a cultural, linguistic and national area. In those respects it was quite
similar to the various colonies and later states that together developed into
the United States. Certainly England/Britain, France, Netherlands, Russia,
Austria-Hungary, Sweden, and Switzerland had existed by then as nation states
for some centuries, and even Italy had by then become a united monarchy.

Michael Bernet, New York


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

<yisraelasper@comcast.net> wrote

The truth is that being Jewish is both a religious and ethnic classification
depending on context.
But the original question was about English Jews in America and I point out
elsewhere >from the website
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_059400_middlecoloni.htm
about the Middle Colonies, which gives a list of the colonists origins which
includes Dutch Calvinists, Scandinavian Lutherans, German Baptists, Swiss
Pietists, Welsh Quakers, French Huguenots, Scots Presbyterians which is a
linkage of geographic area and religion.

Of course, most went to North America for religious freedom.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

<MBernet@aol.com> wrote

==Germany did not exist as a unified nation before then but it did exist as
a cultural, linguistic and national area. In those respects it was quite
similar to the various colonies and later states that together developed into
the United States. Certainly England/Britain, France, Netherlands, Russia,
Austria-Hungary, Sweden, and Switzerland had existed by then as nation states
for some centuries, and even Italy had by then become a united monarchy.
I repeat my quote >from the articke as to how the Colonists are described in
this article about the Middle Colonies
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_059400_middlecoloni.htm.
The list of the colonists which is a combination of national and religious
origin includes Dutch Calvinists, Scandinavian Lutherans, German Baptists,
Swiss Pietists, Welsh Quakers, French Huguenots, Scots Presbyterians - note
the linkage of geographic area and religion.

The original question related to Colonial America and how nationality would
be referred to. I was merely pointing out when a unified Germany was formed
but the questioner was talking about an earlier period.

This was an era that predated passports but other than in a loose sense I
don't know what it meant. I know that my greatgrandfather was naturalised
British in 1871 but I don't know when that procedure was introduced.

Borders were changing all the time, and >from what you imply in the case of
Germany and Italy, the linguistic and national area became much the same.
Presumably people >from Poland were described as Polish although there was
rarely a Polish kingdom - that is unless you were German or Jewish, in which
case you regarded yourself as Austro-Hungarian and spoke German.

The Wikipedia article on nationalism says that the nation state was born in
1648 with the Treaty of Westphalia. It then says that until the nineteenth
century it was an elite phenomon. It says that multinational states such as
the Austro-Hungarian Empire began to lose their grip, and localised states
such merged into larger national entities eg Germany and Italy.

from 1815 to 1871 was formed the German Confederation.
I understand that the German mercenaries in Revolutionary America were and
are known as Hessians. We still talk about Prussian militarism, and much
reference is also made to Bavaria.

As far as Italy is concerned there is a political party, the Northern
League, that wants to secede >from the rest of Italy. I believe that Italians
are still identified mainly >from the region where they live or originate.

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)

PS You don't seem to have responded to my statement within the nesting that
should have occurred - that is it doesn't appear to the right of my posting
but immediately under it.