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Younger siblings marrying in-laws' siblings #general


David Edelman <pappapeach@...>
 

Dear Cousin Genners;
There has been discussions about cousin and sibling marriage. This is
a different questain, but with a family kind of marriage:
If you go back in history of, say, 100-150 years, we get the
impression that a lot of comunities were much smaller then they are
now. It is known that travel then was much slower, dangerous, and more
expensive then it is now.
Because of that combination, it has been mentioned that a young man
will travel about 50 miles, to the next village, to "find" his wife.
This is the questain:
Lets say, about two years after this first young mans goes to the
neighbore village where he "found" his wife, his younger brother goes
to the same village to also "get" a wife. This second wife happens to
be the sister of the first wife. This would then make the two
brothers, brother-in-laws: the two sisters, sister-in-laws.
Similarly, although slightly different, if the younger brother is not
the brother of the first husband, but the younger brother of the first
wife, and goes to the first village. You end up with the same result
in the end.
It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?

David Edelman
San Francisco.
Searching: EDELMAN; DUNN;FEINSTEIN; STEIN; ZAGAROFF; latvia.
ALLEN; ARNOFF; FRAIDENBERG; G(H)ENIKOVA; Poland.


Sue <clamp@...>
 

David Edelman <pappapeach@gmail.com> wrote:

It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?
I had two aunts who married two brothers, but this was in London in the
1920s-1930s.

Sue Clamp

--
Sue Clamp
Cambridgeshire, UK.
Researching: ROSENBERG/ROZENBERG, SKOWRONEK, HERSZENKRUG,
KRIEGSMANN/KRIGSMAN/KRYKSMAN, CHENCINER and DRUSZN/DROZEN/DROSSEN, Warsaw.
Getting round to (eventually!): BLEETMAN, Odessa, GOLDSTEIN and SALAMONSKI.

Remove .cut.invalid >from email address to reply.


Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

David Edelman <pappapeach@gmail.com> wrote:

There has been discussions about cousin and sibling marriage. This is
a different questain, but with a family kind of marriage:
If you go back in history of, say, 100-150 years, we get the
impression that a lot of comunities were much smaller then they are
now. It is known that travel then was much slower, dangerous, and more
expensive then it is now.
Because of that combination, it has been mentioned that a young man
will travel about 50 miles, to the next village, to "find" his wife.
This is the questain:
Lets say, about two years after this first young mans goes to the
neighbore village where he "found" his wife, his younger brother goes
to the same village to also "get" a wife. This second wife happens to
be the sister of the first wife. This would then make the two
brothers, brother-in-laws: the two sisters, sister-in-laws.
Similarly, although slightly different, if the younger brother is not
the brother of the first husband, but the younger brother of the first
wife, and goes to the first village. You end up with the same result
in the end.
It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?
Very common, I think.

It's a custom in some circles, in particular among Lubavitch
Chassidim, that in these cases the two couples should live in
different cities. See e.g.
<http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/eternal-joy-1/15.htm>

BTW, my grandmother's two sisters married two brothers. Apparently
a third brother was interested in my grandmother, but she had other
ideas.

Robert Israel
israel@math.ubc.ca
Vancouver, BC, Canada


Roger Lustig <julierog@...>
 

Dear David:

Happened all the time. Still does.

Start with my own parents: first, my father's sister married my mother's
first cousin. Then my father, traveling on business, visited his new
more-or-less-in-laws (hot meal, you know). And met my mother. Mind
you, it wasn't that long ago (55 years next month) that they met, and he
didn't go explicitly to find a wife, and Buenos Aires to New York is a
little more than 50 miles, but the principle is sufficiently similar,
don't you think?

An example closer to your schema: in the 1870's, a son of Abraham Adolph
KUSCHNITZKY traveled >from his home in Gleiwitz (Upper Silesia) to
Vienna. He took with him the address of the brother of Salomon WINKLER,
who was the cantor in Gleiwitz. He married a daughter of Alois
WINKLER. Over the next decade, two of his brothers married two more of
Alois WINKLER's daughters.

That's still more than 50 miles, and he may not have visited the
Viennese WINKLERs in explicit search for a bride, but it's hard to
imagine that his brothers didn't take note of the possibilities right away.

For that matter, I could show you examples of this happening without
travel, i.e., paired marriages within the same city or town. Or a
distant relative of mine named BAGINSKY who was married three
times--each time to a woman named LUSTIG. As far as I know, I'm not
related to any of the wives--but I have determined that wife 2 was the
aunt of wife 3. And wife 1 wasn't a sister of either of the others, but
was probably related to them in some other way.

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ
(my own fourth cousin, and triple cousin of some of Cantor WINKLER's
descendants)


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 05:19:33 UTC, pappapeach@gmail.com (David Edelman)
opined:

Dear Cousin Genners;
There has been discussions about cousin and sibling marriage. This is
a different questain, but with a family kind of marriage:
If you go back in history of, say, 100-150 years, we get the
impression that a lot of comunities were much smaller then they are
now. It is known that travel then was much slower, dangerous, and more
expensive then it is now.
Because of that combination, it has been mentioned that a young man
will travel about 50 miles, to the next village, to "find" his wife.
This is the questain:
Lets say, about two years after this first young mans goes to the
neighbore village where he "found" his wife, his younger brother goes
to the same village to also "get" a wife. This second wife happens to
be the sister of the first wife. This would then make the two
brothers, brother-in-laws: the two sisters, sister-in-laws.
Similarly, although slightly different, if the younger brother is not
the brother of the first husband, but the younger brother of the first
wife, and goes to the first village. You end up with the same result
in the end.
It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?
The major part of the explanation is about travel to other villages; I
am unclear why this is relevant: the same problem exists if the
various families are neighbors in the same village. Similarly, the
question of which was the older sibling is also not part of the
question.

The phenomenon existed (late 19th century examples in my own tree).
I'm sure it still exists. An example of another complicated case is
that of my mother's younger brother who married my former wife's elder
sister, whom he met at my wedding. If you follow the path of the
relationships thus generated (my uncle is also my brother-in-law, my
sister-in-law is also my aunt -- and so was my wife), you may be
reminded (if you are old enough) of the 1960s song "I'm My Own
Grandpa", which concerned a similar, presumably fictional, case.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
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GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

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גירון
 

Hello,
There was no problem with 2 sisters/brothers marriying another 2
sisters/brothers , in the way David Edelman describes.
in fact my GGmother -GGfather were the same:

My Ggmother Yanka WEISZBERGER ( born 1870) married Jakab CZIESLER ( born 1866)
while his brother Ferenc CZIESLER maried her sister Rozsa WEISZBERGER ( born 1879)
This all happend in Austro-Hungarian empire.

I don't know of any Jewish low against it , and it seems logical in the
conditions David described. Don't forget that if the families were very
religious it often happene that the marrige was arranged.
And what is better then a family we already know?

Nava Giron
Israel


Dan Goodman <dsgood@...>
 

Among my distant relatives, there's a case in which a father and son
married sisters. (Ulster County, NY).

Among non-Jews: James Deetz's "In Small Things Forgotten : An
Archaeology of Early American Life" mentions a pattern in early
New England: Man A marries woman B; B's brother marries A's sister.

--
Dan Goodman


Ann Rabinowitz <annrab@...>
 

This was a very common practice and still is throughout the Jewish world.

An instance is that my Lithuanian grandmother's sisters, Jenny and Lena
Zadekowitz, and a cousin, Bertha Singer, married three Hillman brothers,
Morris, Max and Bernard, who were >from Latvia.

This occurred not only in Europe, but when families came to America. In my
Lithuanian grandfather's family, the same occurred with surprising
frequency, especially in America, where the families intermarried with
three or four other famillies in the local vicinity in New Jersey and New
York who had come >from the same shtetl in Europe.

It wasn't limited there, as one of my maternal aunties in England and
another much older relative played the "shadchan" for a number of relatives
and friends, some siblings, who were >from the same Ukrainian shtetls of
Drohobych and Borislav.

Further, going back to "der heim", if one looks are marriage records
carefully, this practice of sibling marriages can be found, as it is quite
common to see a number of relatives, particularly siblings, married on the
same day or in the same week.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net


HPOLLINS@...
 

It would seem this should have been common, but I have never seen it.
I have only seen it once, in present San Francisco, where two sisters
are married to two brothers.
Was this common, not aloud, or what?
---

In the mid-19th century in London there were two families (both on my late
wife's family tree). One of them had 14 children and the other had ten. Four
of each family married four of the other family. Nothing to do with villages..

Harold Pollins
Oxford, England