Austria Vienna, Poland and Hungary #general


H Duboff
 

B"H

Hi.

On a 1930 census record, my g-g-aunt Reba ASKIN (who was born 1895) is
listed as having been born in "Austria Vienna." Her mother and father
are listed as having been born in "Austria Vienna" as well. The
language spoken in her home was "Yiddish." Places listed for other
people on that 1930 census page (not connected with Reba's listing and
copied exactly as they were spelled) are: Austria Vienna, Russia
Mosco, Rumania, Unkrania, Lithuania, and Poland. (This is the only
time I've seen Austria Vienna or Russia Mosco.)

On the 1930 census for Reba's parents, the mother is listed as born in
"Austria" and the language spoken in her home there was "Polish" while
the father is listed as born in "Russia" and the language spoken in
the home is "Jewish."

All other census records for Reba's siblings indicate that the mother
was born in "Austria" and the father in "Russia", with "Jewish" as the
language spoken. (I realize that "Yiddish" and "Jewish" are the
same.)

I have a marriage license application for Reba's sister with "Austria
Poland" listed as the place of birth.

My question is thus: Was there a difference, in 1895, among "Austria
Hungary", "Austria Vienna", and/or "Austria Poland" or is it the same
thing?

Thank you,
--
Henoch Duboff

Researching: FAERSTEIN, TICHNER; (Skalo - Austria);
MAILSHANKER/MELSZENKER (Grading/Gorodok Podol. and Buenos Aires -
Argentina); OBLETZ, ROSOFF (Dokshytz - Belarus) ; PINTOV, FINN
(Gluboko - Vilna); RAFKIN/RAVKIN (Dwinsk; ZEMBLE (Lushnitz);DUBOWY
(Zalocie - Austria)


Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:35:02 UTC, hduboff@gmail.com (H Duboff) opined:

> My question is thus: Was there a difference, in 1895, among "Austria
Hungary", "Austria Vienna", and/or "Austria Poland" or is it the same
thing?
If somebody says they were born in "Austria" (with whatever
qualification) and that the language spoken at home was Polish, the
chances are very good that in fact they were born in western Galicia,
in an area that is now southern Poland or eastern Ukraina. "Austria
Poland" ought to be self-explanatory. "Austria Hungary" is the name of
the empire; my impression is that it can mean, in this context,
anything -- in other words, I think someone who gives this as his
place of birth can have been born anywhere in the empire.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

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Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Henoch Duboff wrote: "on a 1930 census record, my
g-g-aunt Reba ASKIN (who was born 1895) is listed as
having been born in "Austria Vienna." Her mother and
father are listed as having been born in "Austria
Vienna" as well. The language spoken in her home was
"Yiddish.

It is when the census states *Austria* that you have
major problems about the exact place of birth. However
if it states *Vienna*, Austria it is much more likely
that the place is actually *Vienna*, the capital of
the Habsburg Empire until the end of WW1. *Austria*
alone could mean many regions of the Empire.

The fact that the language spoken at home was Yiddish
suggests strongly that the family was >from Galicia.
Many Galician Jews lived in the 2nd district of Vienna
and are buried in the huge Jewish cemetery in Vienna.


I looked for ASKIN graves in Vienna and there are
none. This could be because it is a very rare name,
but my guess is that it was changed >from one of the
variants below which are found in the Jewish burial
records of Vienna: ASCHKINASI - ASCHKINASY - ASKINASZ
-ASKENASI - ASCHKENASE [1 hit each]; ASKENAZY -
ASCHKENAZY - ASCHKENAS [2 hits each]; ASKENASY [5
hits]; ASCHKENES [6 hits]; ASCHKENASI [8 hits];
ASCHKENASY [13 hits].

Many of these are associated with first names which
suggest a Galician origin. My "name change hypothesis"
is substantiated by: Leon ASKIN [originally Leon
ASCHKENASY] Austrian actor, born Vienna 18 September
1907. When he was a child he met Emperor Franz Josef
and recited a long poem. He became a student of Max
REINHARDT [ne Maximilian GOLDMANN] and Louise DUMONT.
He emigrated during W.W.II 1938 but returned to
Vienna.

http://www.askin.at/e_k01.htm

So when Henoch looks for the birth records in Vienna
[and they are very precise], it will be necessary to
look under these alternate spellings. If Reba ASKIN
was originally ASCHKENASY as with Leon, then there are
thirteen possible relatives buried in Vienna and
probably many more who tragically died in the
holocaust, who we remember here today. Again, a
cornucopia of leads to follow up.

I would also strongly advise Henoch to join
the Austria-Czech SIG of Jewishgen. This SIG with
about 700 members specialises in Bohemia and Moravia
as well as in Austria, with special reference to
Vienna, where most of the ca 200,000 Austrian Jews
lived before 1938. Many Jews emigrated >from Bohemia
and Moravia [now the Czech Republic], Galicia as well
as other areas of the Habsburg Empire after 1848, and
settled in Vienna:
http://www.jewishgen.org/AustriaCzech/

And as a final bonus, on our SIG we have just had a
great *hit* with an ASCHKENES family >from Moravia -
with descendants in Israel and Nova Scotia.

Celia Male [U.K.]


H Duboff
 

B"H

Here is an example of not posting complete information when making a
request. Yes, I'm talking about my own posting.

I neglected to mention that ASKIN is the married name! Her maiden
name was FAERSTEIN and was originally pronounced with the ending of
-SHTEIN.

Her sister is the one with the "Austria-Poland" on her marriage
license; the same sister has "Skalo, Austria" written on her (the
sister's) husband's naturalization papers. On a brother's census
record, "Austria Yiddish" is listed as the *place* of birth, and Yiddish
is listed as the language spoken before coming to the US.

One reply informed me that in 1930, the census takers were told to
clarify the exact location rather than just "Austria." I'm wondering
if perhaps the census taker simply wrote in "Vienna" after the fact?
--
Henoch Duboff

Researching: FAERSTEIN, TICHNER; (Skalo - Austria);
MAILSHANKER/MELSZENKER (Grading/Gorodok Podol. and Buenos Aires -
Argentina); OBLETZ, ROSOFF (Dokshytz - Belarus) ; PINTOV, FINN
(Gluboko - Vilna); RAFKIN/RAVKIN (Dwinsk - Russia); ZEMBLE (Lushnitz -
Russia);DUBOWY (Zalocie - Austria)


Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Henoch Duboff writes: " Here is an example of not
posting complete information when making a request.
Yes, I'm talking about my own posting. I neglected to
mention that ASKIN is the married name! Her maiden
name was FAERSTEIN and was originally pronounced with
the ending of -SHTEIN.

Her sister is the one with the "Austria-Poland" on her
marriage license; the same sister has "Skalo, Austria"
written on her (the sister's) husband's naturalization
papers. On a brother's census record, "Austria
Yiddish" is listed as the *place* of birth, and
Yiddish is listed as the language spoken before coming
to the US.

One reply informed me that in 1930, the census takers
were told to clarify the exact location rather than
just "Austria." I'm wondering if perhaps the census
taker simply wrote in "Vienna" after the fact?"

Because of Henoch's unclear posting, I sent in a
detailed reply yesterday about ASKIN and zeroed in on
ASCHKENASY-related names in Vienna. I do not regret
it, and I have sent in another posting to say why.

But I am after Henoch's explanation today, I am more
confused than ever *whose name*, actually relates to
being born in *Vienna, Austria*? If it is the
FAERSTEIN girl, there are plenty of Galician
FEUERSTEIN buried in Vienna. The FAERSTEIN who stayed
in Vienna would definitely have changed their names to
FEUERSTEIN, but their Galician origins are revealed by
their first names.

So there is no reason why this baby girl was not born
in Vienna. It is perfectly possible to prove, once and
for all, if this mystery person was born in ***Vienna,
Austria***, or if it was a figment of the census
taker's imagination. Why speculate? As I said
originally, the Vienna Jewish birth records are very
good. One has to do the research.

Carol Rider's posting was very apt yesterday. The
Moderator thoughtfully gave us this link, which I read
for the first time and I was most amused: Dan Leeson's
tale is located at:

http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/dlfable.txt

Celia Male [U.K.]


Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

We have been discussing whether "Vienna" which appears together with "Austria"
on the US censuses is accurate and meaningful or whether it was just a "fancy"
of the census enumerators. Perhaps they had never heard of any other place in
Austria and entered it on the form wherever the person came >from in Austria or
in some cases perhaps even the wider Habsburg Empire?

Henoch Duboff wrote: <One reply informed me that in 1930, the census takers were
told to clarify the exact location rather than just "Austria." I'm wondering if
perhaps the census taker simply wrote in "Vienna" after the fact?"> and today
Victoria Reed wrote; <My grandfather, who was born in a little shtetl somewhere
in Galicia, and emigrated to England at an early age, and then came to the U.S.,
has in his census record for place of birth "Vienna". Hogwash! I have surmised
over the years, after hearing similar stories, that "Vienna" had more cachet
than "Toporov">

Victoria's use of the word *Hogwash* spurred me on so I decided to check out the
available facts using the internet resources available to me. I logged on to the
best-known paying genealogy site. Unfortunately, I do not have a full US
subscription so could not check the 1930 census quoted by Henoch to see if it
conforms to my findings below. I used the free 1880 Federal census
[I could not access the fee-paying facsimile] & found:

1. About 250 entries for born in Vienna - a very few with Austria and even fewer
with ASTR or AUS attached. One has NY, two have MO attached.

2. However there were 32,584 entries for Austria alone.

So logically, I would imagine that in the 1880 census *Vienna* had some meaning
as a real place. In some instances it could refer to Vienna, USA [West Va, NY,
Alabama, Mo or others - and there are in fact some of these listed - perhaps
there are many more born in *Vienna, USA*, but the state has been omitted?

Then I went to the England and Wales censuses:

1851 71 Vienna - 461 Austria
1861 92 Vienna - 1,077 Austria
1871 181 Vienna - 2,547 Austria
1881 328 Vienna - 2,626 Austria
1891 408 Vienna - 4,946 Austria
1901 457 Vienna - 10,919 Austria

Again only a small proportion, which is quite reasonable in the context of the
expected results, come >from Vienna. I know >from my research that quite a few of
the English families are really >from **Vienna**.

The England and Wales censuses have many laughable entries under Austria which
should be *Australia* and some Austria entries are properly annotated with:
Cracow/Kracow/Krakan/Krakaw, Lemberg, Tarnow, Prag,Mistelbach, Bad Gastein,
Trieste, Bohemia, Silesia, Salzbourg [sic], Fiume, Hungarian, Dalmatius, Linz,
Toplis [sic], Ragusa, Steyr, Carlsbad, Brunn, Gallicia [sic] and other places
(again many mistranscriptions]. Vienna is also mistranscribed in some entries
and is obviously an entirely different place in the world.

I have also checked some of the US 1880 families and they are also ***really
from Vienna***. However, I have found some entries which suggest Vienna could
have been the place of emigration, not birth.

I have no space or time to discuss the data further here, but it is clear to me
from the above analysis that the word **Vienna** in the US 1880 Federal census
and in the England and Wales censuses 1851-1901, was not used indiscriminately.
Obviously, birth place **Vienna** in some instances was used as "folie de
grandeur", or perhaps the person really was not sure or the enumerator did not
understand.

Please do not let us perpetuate a textbook error by dismissing all **Vienna**
census entries as "Hogwash". The statistical facts speak for themselves. Each
case must be examined in its own right before we make sweeping statements and as
I said before, the Jewish birth records for Vienna are very good. And remember,
many Christians >from Vienna may have emigrated too!

One major problem is that the frequent mis-transcription of the names may need a
lot of lateral thinking before finding the real name in Austria in the wider
historical sense and/or Vienna itself.

Celia Male [U.K.]


Leslie Weinberg <artsoul@...>
 

It is interesting that although my grandfather came >from Tyczyn, Poland,
he would never say he was >from Poland, he was ">from Austria-Hungary".
Leslie Weinberg

Sharon R. Korn wrote:


Here is a different possibility regarding Austria as the country of
origin in the census. According to the 1930 census, my grandfather was
born in Austria. Actually, the census taker misunderstood. My
grandfather said he was born in Ostria, which was an alternate name for
the town of Ostrog, in Russia (now Ukraine).

My husband really does have ancestors >from Austria, and this discussion
has made me wonder if the information that they were >from Vienna is
correct.


Sharon R. Korn <s.r.korn@...>
 

Here is a different possibility regarding Austria as the country of origin
in the census. According to the 1930 census, my grandfather was born in
Austria. Actually, the census taker misunderstood. My grandfather said he
was born in Ostria, which was an alternate name for the town of Ostrog, in
Russia (now Ukraine).

My husband really does have ancestors >from Austria, and this discussion has
made me wonder if the information that they were >from Vienna is correct.

Sharon Korn
San Diego, CA


Roger Lustig <julierog@...>
 

Leslie:

Tyczyn, in Galicia, was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire >from 1792
until 1918. There was no country called Poland >from 1795 until 1919, so
your grandfather may simply have been referring to the state that issued
his passport, to which he paid his taxes, etc.

Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ

Leslie Weinberg wrote:

It is interesting that although my grandfather came >from Tyczyn, > Poland, he
would never say he was >from Poland, he was ">from Austria-Hungary".


Alexander Sharon
 

"Roger Lustig" wrote

Tyczyn, in Galicia, was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire >from 1792
until 1918. There was no country called Poland >from 1795 until 1919, so
your grandfather may simply have been referring to the state that issued
his passport, to which he paid his taxes, etc.
Austro-Hungarian Empire was established only in 1867 (The Ausgleich 1867) as
the compromise or personal union between the lands of Hungarian crown and
the western land of the Habsburgs.

The Hungarian success inspired similar movements in Bohemia and Galicia .
The formal federation was not established but the large degree of the
autonomy and rights have been granted to the Nations within the Empire,
which has been adopted written in December 1867 Constitution.

Guaranteed by the Constitution rights have been known as "The Fundamental
Laws", which have granted equality before the law and freedom of press,
speech, and assembly, and the protection of the various nationalities,
stating that (quote >from the 1867 Constitution):

"....all nationalities in the state enjoy equal rights, and each one has
Inalienable right to the preservation and cultivation of its nationality and
language. The equal rights of all languages in local use are quarantined by
the state in schools, administration and public life".

All the Crown Land Galicia administration was run by the Polish speaking
officials. Genealogical researchers will confirm that all vital records >from
Galicia were issued in Polish.

At the same time, two main Galicia universities in Krakow in Lwow were
delivering instructions in Polish, and Polish cultural life and arts were
also concentrating in those cities. Two cities were also the seats of the
supreme crownland courts of Galicia and Bukovina.

Perhaps this will clarify the matter.

Alexander Sharon
Calgary, Ab


Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Leslie Weinberg wrote: "It is interesting that
although my grandfather came >from Tyczyn, Poland,he
would never say he was >from Poland, he was "from
Austria-Hungary".

As I am steeped in Habsburg genealogy and my maternal family was centred in
Vienna since the mid-1800s, I do not find that at all surprising. Many today
may have forgotten the importance of the Habsburg Empire and the Dual Monarchy.
A visit to Vienna will remind you what a mighty Empire this must have been.
Vienna is a true Imperial capital city - a real anachronism in the context of
the tiny country today. Of course there was dissent but, by and large, there was
allegiance to this Monarchy and especially to the Emperor Franz Joseph, who
ruled as Emperor >from 1848-1916 [yes, that is correct!]. Sadly, there was
discrimination in the Monarchy and to say you were >from Poland [Austrian-
controlled regions] would not have the cachet as to say [correctly] that you
were >from Austro-Hungary. Tragically, many hundreds of thousands of men [and
many Jews] fell in World War I fighting for their Kaiser. And that was the end
of the Empire, yet the nostalgia continued, as indeed it represented for many
[including Jews] a glorious intellectual and prosperous period. The very large
Jewish population came >from Austria & Hungary, Bohemia & Moravia [now Czech
Republic] and many far-flung regions including Trieste, former Yugoslavia,
Romania, Galicia, Transcarpathian Ruthenia; even Venice was only ceded to
Italy in 1866 see:
http://www.bartleby.com/65/au/AustroHu.html

"The strength of the Dual Monarchy lay in its vastness, its virtual economic
self-sufficiency, .. opportunities for commercial intercourse >from the Swiss
border to the Carpathians. Its weakness was less in its ethnic diversity than
in the unequal treatment ... in the spirit of ... "Divide and rule."

Celia Male [U.K.]