London names: HOLRIE, ABRAHAM, BRAHAM, POULTON/POULTOW, #general


Judith Romney Wegner
 

At 4:56 PM -0400 8/7/06, Bubby wrote:
The wedding took place in the "Sandys Row Synagogue" (that first
word may be wrong; it's hard to read)
The Sandys Row Synagogue is quite famous and flourishing in the 19th
century , so my guess is that you have read it correctly.

I recently found out that Harris is the common name given
to many people who carried the Hebrew name Mordechai.
Please tell us how you found that out -- it is news to me! I have
zillions of Mordechais in my family, including one of my sons, but
none of them is a "Harris." They are all Marks -- except for a
cousin named Martin. (Mark is in fact a standard English soundalike
for Mordechai) .

Harris is a much used English sound-alike , but not normally for
Mordechai. It is the standard sound-alike for the Yiddish name
Hirsch/Hersh/ Herschel (which means stag and indicates that the
ancestral Hebrew name was almost certainly Zvi (pronounced Tsvee)
-- which is Hebrew for a stag.

Now if the Mordechais in your family had a double barreled name
Mordechai-Tsvi, or Mordechai-Hersh, I could understand them being
called Harris -- but that would represent the name Zvi or the
Hersh and not the name Mordechai..

Judith Romney Wegner


Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Fraida Cohen [NY] writes about these London families: < Today, I
received the death certificate, Hannah HOLRIE, who died at the age of
63, in 1896. .....

I also received the marriage certificates of two of their daughters:
In 1889, Anna HOLRIE, age 21, spinster, tailoress, married Lewis
ABRAHAMS, age 23, bachelor, master tailor. His father's name was
Joseph ABRAHAMS, also a tailor. .....In the 1890 and 1900 censuses,
Lewis and Anna are listed with the surname of BRAHAM)

John POULTOW or POULTON, a bachelor marine engineer aged 25 and son
of Alfred POULTOW or POULTON, who was a shipwright, married Minnie
HOLRIE, a 25 year old spinster. This couple was married in the
Register Office ......

Another curiosity, since I am unfamiliar with British naming customs.
Is POULTOW or POULTON a Jewish surname in Britain? I can ask the
same about my relative's name, because I have absolutely no idea
where the name HOLRIE came >from as well. I recently found out that
Harris is the common name given to many people who carried the Hebrew
name Mordechai.>

1. The HOLRIE family were all >from Warsaw and can already be seen in
the 1881 census of England. What their original name could have been
I leave to others to guess.

Somehow they never got nationalised by *1901* when one can see the
BRAHAM family plus widowed father all living together in the East
End: Lewis BRAHAM 35; Annie BRAHAM 31; Children Sarah 10; Sidney 9;
Lilly 8; Caroline 6 and Harris HOLRIE 61

Annie and Harris HOLRIE [father and daughter] were still foreign
subjects >from Warsaw and Lewis BRAHAM [was ABRAHAM] was a foreign
subject >from Poland.

2. I am pretty sure the POULTON family were a poor working-class
non-Jewish English family >from Kent [Greenwich and Deptford by the
River Thames - hence the jobs of John and father Alfred related to
ships and the river!]. I believe this to be John POULSON's family in
1881: John 18 and his brothers Joseph 23 and Alfred 14 are living
with married brother William POULTON 32 [transcribed as 22]; and his
wife Caroline 24 and their children: Caroline 5; William 3 and George
2.

This suggests that the parents had died and perhaps that is why John
was living/lodging in the HOLRIE household. I cannot find Minnie and
John POULTON in any census after their marriage in 1890.

POULTON is variously mistranscribed in the census too as PONLTON etc
.. The final *W* as in POULTOW is a common transcription error for
the real letter *N*.

Celia Male [U.K.]


Harry Dodsworth <af877@...>
 

I believe the correct name for the street with the synagogue is
Sandy's Row; however Sandys Row is widely used. It is now a quaint
historic street; 100 years ago it was regarded as squalid.

John Poulton is recorded as POULTON on the GRO marriage index.
It was not unusual for couples to give the same address on marriage
certificates; I wouldn't draw any conclusion >from this.

The family is certainly confusing. On the 1881 census, Harris Holrie
is listed as Deaf and Dumb. His wife was recorded as Eva.
On the 1891 census there is no record of a handicap for Harris but
a daughter Caroline (33) is listed as Deaf and Dumb. Harris's wife
is listed as Hannah.

Harris Holrie died in the December quarter of 1903 (GRO Index).

If Hyman (grandson, 1881 census or son, 1891 census) was born
in Warsaw in 1878 and moved to England with the whole family,
it would appear they moved to England between 1878 and 1881.

Harry Dodsworth Ottawa Canada - af877@freenet.carleton.ca


Bubby <yeruchem18@...>
 

2. I am pretty sure the POULTON family were a poor working-class
non-Jewish English family
I was thinking that was a definite possibility, but in looking through the
UK census lists tonight, I find a number of Poulton families having members
with Jewish-sounding given names.

I cannot find Minnie and John POULTON in any census after their marriage in
1890.
I find a Minnie Poulton in the 1901 UK census and one in the 1910 census in
the USA.

Fraida Cohen
New York


HPOLLINS@...
 

In a message dated 09/08/2006 15:07:00 GMT Standard Time,
yeruchem18@bestweb.net writes:
. I am pretty sure the POULTON family were a poor working-class
non-Jewish English family
I was thinking that was a definite possibility, but in looking through the
UK census lists tonight, I find a number of Poulton families having members
with Jewish-sounding given names.

---

It was quite common for non-Jewish families to have Biblical names. I
inserted 'Abraham' in the 1901 Census of England. There were hundreds of
responses, the overwhelmiong majority of which were clearly non-Jewish. I
alsi inserted 'Moses' as a forename in the 1901 Census of Wales. The
non-Jewish response was overwhelming.

Harold Pollins
Oxford, England


Bubby <yeruchem18@...>
 

First, thank you for your response.

John Poulton is recorded as POULTON on the GRO marriage index.
It was not unusual for couples to give the same address on marriage
certificates; I wouldn't draw any conclusion >from this.
That's an interesting bit of information.

The family is certainly confusing. On the 1881 census, Harris Holrie
is listed as Deaf and Dumb. His wife was recorded as Eva.
On the 1891 census there is no record of a handicap for Harris but
a daughter Caroline (33) is listed as Deaf and Dumb. Harris's wife
is listed as Hannah.
Yes, the family is quite confusing! It seems as if the family members change
names almost as often as they change clothes!

The following family members are listed in the 1881 census: Harris, head;
Eva, wife; Mary, daughter; Annie, daughter; Minnie, daughter; Hyman,
grandson.

In the 1891, the family members are listed: Harris, head; Hannah, wife;
Caroline, daughter; Minnie, daughter; Hyman; son.

Between censuses, Eva's name changed to Hannah (unless Eva died or Harris
divorced her and he remarried in the ten years between the censuses). Mary
is gone, Annie is gone and Caroline has appeared and Hyman went >from being
Harris' grandson to his son.

I also noticed what you are saying about the listing of different family
members as deaf and dumb in the 1881 and 1891 censuses.

The daughter, Mary, was listed in the 1881 census as married and I am
assuming that Hyman, who is listed initially as a grandson, is her son. And
I also noted that in the 1891 census, Mary is no longer listed. Would the
census takers make note if a person was divorced? Where is her husband?
Later, Mary is not around and Hyman is listed as a son. Could Mary have
gotten remarried and left her son with her parents? Could she have passed
away?

Harris Holrie died in the December quarter of 1903 (GRO Index).
I have a copy of his death certificate. He was living with his daugher,
Annie, and son-in-law, Louis Braham at 124 Victoria Dock Road at the time.
Their children were: Sarah, Sidney, Lilly and Caroline. It's possible that
Caroline was named after her aunt Caroline who died somewhere between the
1891 and 1901 censuses.

If Hyman (grandson, 1881 census or son, 1891 census) was born
in Warsaw in 1878 and moved to England with the whole family,
it would appear they moved to England between 1878 and 1881.
I hadn't thought of that, but you are right! But I wonder why Hyman is not
found after the 1891 census.

Thanks again for your input.

Fraida Cohen
New York


Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

This topic brought up by Fraida Cohen of NY has resulted in a flurry
of postings. Harold Pollins has already addressed the question of
biblical first names in England and as he says, they are definitely
no marker for Jewish families. {Fraida wrote: I find a number of
POULTON families having members with Jewish-sounding given names.}

To my comment: <I cannot find Minnie and John POULTON in any census
after their marriage in 1890.> Fraida then wrote: <I find a Minnie
Poulton in the 1901 UK census and one in the 1910 census in
the USA.>

Anyone who studies censuses knows that one has to pinpoint the right
*Minnie* - there are lots of Minnie POULTON in 1901 but I have not
yet found the right one who matches the profile of *our Minnie nee
Holrie in Warsaw". That is not all - I have not even found father
Albert POULTON and the young POULTON family in the much earlier
censuses. Nor have I found Caroline HOLRIE and her brother Hyman
after 1891.

from Ottawa Harry Dodsworth writes: <This is a very confusing family
-deaf and dumb registered for two different people and different
first names for Mrs HOLRIE - Hyman (grandson, 1881 census or son,
1891 census).>

That first name change in different censuses is common too. Hyman's
status is puzzling. But mistakes do happen as this family probably
did not apeak English in 1881 shortly after their arrival in London.
The 1891 cenus is more likely to be correct.

I am more interested in the original name of the HOLRIE {HOROWITZ
perhaps?] family >from Warsaw - who never bothered to naturalise for
20 years - and where the lost family members were in the 1840s
[POULTON} and 1901 [POULTON and HOLRIE], including young Hyman HOLRIE
born in Warsaw in 1878 and his sister Caroline [who may, or may not
be, deaf and dumb]. I have found a possible candidate for Hyman
though - and in 1901 he is naturalised, repairs watches, lives alone
at 173 Deptford High Street [right age and area] and is called
HARRIS. I really wonder if he changed his name again? Only a hunch
... And Caroline may be in an institution as her father has moved in
with his daughter Minnie?

Celia Male [U.K.]


Judith Romney Wegner
 

At 11:12 PM -0400 8/9/06, Bubby wrote:

Between censuses, Eva's name changed to Hannah
It may be worth knowing that if her English name was Eva, her Hebrew
name was almost certainly Havvah. Havvah, whether written in English
or in Hebrew, can quite easily be misread as Hannah -- so maybe her
name didn't change at all.

Judith Romney Wegner


Bubby <yeruchem18@...>
 

In response to Celia Male's comments:

I have not even found father
Albert POULTON and the young POULTON family in the much earlier
censuses. Nor have I found Caroline HOLRIE and her brother Hyman
after 1891.
Please note that the name of John Poulton's father was Alfred, not Albert.

I am more interested in the original name of the HOLRIE {HOROWITZ
perhaps?] family >from Warsaw - who never bothered to naturalise for
20 years
Are there arrival records for people coming to Great Britain similar to the
Castle Garden and Ellis Island records?

and where the lost family members were in the 1840s
[POULTON} and 1901 [POULTON and HOLRIE], including young Hyman HOLRIE
born in Warsaw in 1878 and his sister Caroline [who may, or may not
be, deaf and dumb]. I have found a possible candidate for Hyman
though - and in 1901 he is naturalised, repairs watches, lives alone
at 173 Deptford High Street [right age and area] and is called
HARRIS. I really wonder if he changed his name again? Only a hunch
Meaning he went by the name of Hyman Harris?

Would naturalization papers show the name that a person entered Great
Britain with and can one get copies of them?

... And Caroline may be in an institution as her father has moved in
with his daughter Minnie?
It was Annie Holrie Braham that Harris moved in with and of course it is a
possibility that Caroline was institutionalized. As well, I wonder why
Caroline is not listed in the 1881 census.

I have another thought. Perhaps Harris was indeed a deaf mute and that is
why he couldn't apply for naturalization?

Fraida Cohen


Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Bubby" <yeruchem18@bestweb.net> wrote:

Are there arrival records for people coming to Great Britain similar to
the Castle Garden and Ellis Island records?
See "Anglo-Jewish History, 18th-20th Centuries: Sources in The National
Archives"

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=249

and National Archives Research Guide on Immigrants

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=243

My understanding is that there is not such a list and that ships manifests
is what people use.

You need to read the second document but I have never heard it suggested.

Aliens would or might have had to register at a Police Station.

Would naturalization papers show the name that a person entered Great
Britain with and can one get copies of them?
One can get copies of naturalisation papers >from the National Archives as I
posted the other day.

One can actually do a search on the name and then order on-line.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp

--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland) WEITZMAN (Cracow), WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany),
THALHEIMER (Mainbernheim, Germany), KOHN/WEISSKOPF (Wallerstein and
Kleinerdlingen,Germany), LANDAU (only adopted
on leaving Russia/Belarus or later)/FREDKIN (?)
(Gomel, Mogilev, Chernigov, Russia/Belarus)