ASHKANASE fabric - a summing up? #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>

Do you remember when barely a week ago Hyla Fox sent in a posting about an old
textile? <Worked into the fabric on the bottom is one word: Ashkanase. (That
was exactly how it was spelled.)>

I have followed the thread with great care and am amazed how it tangled it has

No one entering the General Discussion Group now and reading the postings about
- the Judeo-German and yiddish for wife and horse; pharaoh's birthday
celebrations; the possible relationship between the father of the atomic bomb
and the famous OPPENHEIMER Hof Jude in Vienna; toponymics; Glueckel of Hameln
and whether she was of/in or >from Hameln and whether she would remember the
birthdays of her many children; a dictionary of criminal jargon compiled by the
police chief of Berlin in the 19th Century - would realise that all this began
with a covering for a loaf of chollah which by now has gone *completely stale*.

We all agreed that the variously spelled/named ASCHKENAZY [should I use a Y or
an I as an ending?] were Ashkenazi Jews who somehow got this name - where or
when remains in some doubt. Nothing is proven except that the name was already
established very early in Bohemia and Moravia, Poland and in Constantinople
[see below].

re Vienna, the 30 plus variant names I listed were >from 1930s telephone
directories, holocaust records and asset files I have studied - so there was a
total misunderstanding when we received a posting refuting this and telling us
about the very few early Hof and Tolerierte Juden of the mass migration of Jews
into Vienna >from 1848 onwards. Unless one specifically talks about the select
group of Tolerierte Juden in Vienna, one generally refers to the huge
population of about 200,000 Jews >from 1848 onwards.

Now we come to the Eshkenazi and variants. I have received a number of replies
telling me of encounters with and personal knowledge of Sephardic or Mizrahi
Jews named ESKENAZI ICHKINAZI ESQUINAZI [the latter in Peru, Mexico, Cuba],
Schinazi and variants.

Reading the lecture on Jewish surnames that Albert HYAMS delivered to the North
London Literary and Social Union sometime in 1907, I came across these two
interesting snippets [probably long since forgotten by nearly everyone] to add
to my headful of useless or useful facts:

1. ALAMAN and ALEMAN still flourish {as family names} in the Turkish dominion

So could these be the ASCHKENAZI, TEDESKO, TEDESCHI in another guise?

2. The various synagogues at Constantinople also gave distinguishing names to
the descendants of some of their members: ASHKENAZKY and ROMANOs [Jews of the

[btw plenty of ROMANO in Alexandria too]! Did these Synagogue members then
intermarry with the local Sephardic girls? I suspect they did and and in the
process kept their name but lost their Ashkenazi "roots". This happened in
Alexandria all the time eg: families called ROSENBERG, POLLAK and WEINSTEIN
were Sephardic and French-speaking!

So back to the Jews of Constantinople. The Jewish Encyclopedia has an
interesting but necessarily brief summary in which we read: a physician named
Solomon ben Nathan ASHKENAZI, a native of Poland, held, about 1580, the office
of {Turkish} ambassador at Venice. The article cites numerous other ASHKENAZI
of prominence in Constantinople. They were already there very early as we now

Conclusion: following the thread might be boring. It makes life easier for
someone seeking an answer to a straight question, but perhaps it is not as much
fun for those who like to improvise and digress.

Celia Male [U.K.]