Pogroms and rape #general


Tilford Bartman <bartmant@...>
 

It may not have just been Chelmelnitsy massacre and pogroms? In my
research into the Bialystok area of Northeastern Poland I have found any
number of references to, and stories of pretty significant fear on the
part of young Jewish women of rape by non Jewish young men. These
accounts are >from the 1920's and 30's. I don't know if this was an
exaggerated fear based on a few incidents, imparted to Jewish women to
keep them >from social contact with non Jewish young men, or was there
actually a significant rate of incidence of rape of Jewish women by non
Jewish men? My impression is that Jewish and non Jewish communities
lived side by side, but social contacts, particularly those not related
to business or commerce were at a minimum, particularly prior to WW I.
The other question is how likely was it that a Jewish women who was
raped by a non-Jew would go on to marry and have a Jewish spouse and
reproduce. Or was there most often a stigma that resulted such a Jewish
women no being able to fulfill this role in life. I could only speculate
regarding the attitude of the community to children born to Jewish
mothers who were raped by non Jews. How many of such children retained
a Jewish identity during life, going on to have Jewish spouses and
children of their own?

Tilford Bartman

I am looking for sources about the attitude of Jewish communities to
children born to Jewish mothers who were raped during pogroms, such as
the Chemelnitsky massacres during the 17th century. This has
genealogical relevance to the prevalence of typically non-Jewish Y
chromosome markers amongst Ashkenazi Jewry.

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
chaimjan@...


Yisrael Asper
 

I have found nothing so far. It is very hard I see. Perhaps there were too many
women killed in the pogroms before they could give birth. I know there was great
sympathy for all people in such situations, men, women and children. Still
Seforim showing the great ancestry of famous Rabbis can be assumed not to
mention such children as members of the family by marriage or descent and also
with their children. If they married into Rabbinical families these books can be
expected to be quite about it.
Yisrael Asper
Pittsburgh PA

From: "Chaim Freedman" <chaimjan@...>

I am looking for sources about the attitude of Jewish communities to
children born to Jewish mothers who were raped during pogroms, such as the
Chemelnitsky massacres during the 17th century. This has genealogical
relevance to the prevalence of typically non-Jewish Y chromosome markers
amongst Ashkenazi Jewry.


Chaim freedman
 

I am looking for sources about the attitude of Jewish communities to
children born to Jewish mothers who were raped during pogroms, such as the
Chemelnitsky massacres during the 17th century. This has genealogical
relevance to the prevalence of typically non-Jewish Y chromosome markers
amongst Ashkenazi Jewry.

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
chaimjan@...


Sandy Bass-Cors <sandy@...>
 

I was interested in your posting. I had my DNA done and it came up with
some interesting mixes. But, there are many articles that have been
written that state that Jewish men who went to Europe (many in the
Marseille area) on extended stays married local gentile women who then
converted to Judaism. That would explain the fair haired Jews too.

Chaim Freedman wrote:

I am looking for sources about the attitude of Jewish communities to
children born to Jewish mothers who were raped during pogroms, such as
the Chemelnitsky massacres during the 17th century. This has
genealogical relevance to the prevalence of typically non-Jewish Y
chromosome markers amongst Ashkenazi Jewry.


roe kard
 

Subject: Re: Pogroms and Rapes
I spent six-and-a-half weeks in Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine this
past summer and was shocked to see the numbers of locals who had the
same hair and strange cheeks as me: hair that is very straight and
very fine and very, very unlike the waves and curls of every, single,
other Jew studying at the Vilnius Yiddish Institute and cheeks with a
strange slight sinking. I was forced to realize, especially when I
thought about my sister's and brother's rich wavy hair, that there is
a strong likelihood that someone(s), along the way, in this
intensely, intensely "Klai Kodesh" (Rabbinic-, Cantorial- and Shochet-
based) family probably had some unexpected 'interaction' with someone
not >from The Tribe. Maybe DNA testing will show.

B'shalom,
Gitel Chaye Etta Rosenfeld Rokart
aka Karen Rosenfeld Roekard

Researching:
ROKARD/ROKART/ROKERT, ROKACH (and the relation between the ROKART's
and ROKACH's in Belz)
ROSENFELD, TOPFER, TEPPER, KURZER, KLAHR, KOCH, SPRITZER - Rava
Ruska, Magerov, Zolkiew, Nemirov, Wulka Mazowieka, Olitzke Zarabone
(near Potylitz)
GOLD, GOLDBERG, BIGEL, BERGREEN - Tarnobrzeg, Roptshitz


Eilat Gordin Levitan
 

Tilford Bartman wrote about significant fear on the
part of young Jewish women of rape by non Jewish young men..
I was told about an incident in the late 1920s in Kurenets ( then in
Poland) were a young Jewish woman was "molested" by a non Jew and
became pregnant. Her parents asked the matchmaker for help and she
arranged for abortion. The brother of the matchmaker told me about the
incident.
For pictures and information about Kurenets go to;
http://www.eilatgordinlevitan.com/kurenets/kurenets.html
Eilat Gordin levitan
Los Angeles

Subject: Re: Pogroms and rape
From: Tilford Bartman <bartmant@...>

...I have found any
number of references to, and stories of pretty significant fear on the
part of young Jewish women of rape by non Jewish young men. These
accounts are >from the 1920's and 30's. I don't know if this was an
exaggerated fear based on a few incidents, imparted to Jewish women to
keep them >from social contact with non Jewish young men, or was there
actually a significant rate of incidence of rape of Jewish women by non
Jewish men.......


Jules Levin
 

At 03:11 PM 10/22/2006, you wrote:

I spent six-and-a-half weeks in Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine this
past summer and was shocked to see the numbers of locals who had the
same hair and strange cheeks as me: hair that is very straight and
very fine and very, very unlike the waves and curls of every, single,
other Jew studying at the Vilnius Yiddish Institute and cheeks with a
strange slight sinking.
1) We shouldn't discount the ability of phenotypic selection to
influence such things. If Jews, adopting the aesthetic values of their milieu,
prefer taller, paler, and straighter hair in mate selection, even if this
amounted to less than 1% per generation, in 10 generations,
400 years, there would be some affect on the appearance of [some of]
the population.
2) Given all the pressures for conversion in the community, I would
expect to see more evidence of 'Jewish' genes in the gentile community
than the opposite. I think the story of Oskar Milasz, the French poet,
cousin of Nobel Prize-winner Czeslaw Milasz, is more typical than
gentile-sired babies in the Jewish community. Oskar's mother was the daughter
of a rabbi in a Lithuanian village. His father was a Polish cavalry officer
in the Russian army. Riding through the village, their eyes met, he
swept her up on his horse, and rode off with her to marriage. It is possible
that she, like the Rothschild daughters married to English nobles, privately
practiced Judaism on their estate, but their descendents are good
Catholics, no doubt.

Jules Levin
Los Angeles


Nick <tulse04-news1@...>
 

"Jules Levin" <ameliede@...> wrote
I spent six-and-a-half weeks in Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine this
past summer and was shocked to see the numbers of locals who had the
same hair and strange cheeks as me: hair that is very straight and
very fine and very, very unlike the waves and curls of every, single,
other Jew studying at the Vilnius Yiddish Institute and cheeks with a
strange slight sinking.
1) We shouldn't discount the ability of phenotypic selection to influence
such things. If Jews, adopting the aesthetic values of their milieu,
prefer taller, paler, and straighter hair in mate selection, even if this
amounted to less than 1% per generation, in 10 generations,
400 years, there would be some affect on the appearance of [some of] the
population.
2) Given all the pressures for conversion in the community, I would
expect to see more evidence of 'Jewish' genes in the gentile community
than the opposite. I think the story of Oskar Milasz, the French poet,
cousin of Nobel Prize-winner Czeslaw Milasz, is more typical than
gentile-sired babies in the Jewish community. Oskar's mother was the
daughter of a rabbi in a Lithuanian village. His father was a Polish
cavalry officer
in the Russian army. Riding through the village, their eyes met, he swept
her up on his horse, and rode off with her to marriage. It is possible
that she, like the Rothschild daughters married to English nobles,
privately
practiced Judaism on their estate, but their descendents are good
Catholics, no doubt.
Stephen Pinker, the psychologist had a long article in this Jewish New
Year's edition of the London Jewish Chronicle which was a wide-ranging look
at the psychology of being Jewish (very crudely as I don't have a copy to
hand).

He briefly touched on the subject of the difference between European Jews
and Gentiles - and as I recall he said that with a small amount of
intermarriage over the centuries there was very little difference between
the two groups genetically.

Maybe someone else has a copy of this recent edition and would have a look
at it for me?

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland) WEITZMAN (Cracow), WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany),
THALHEIMER (Mainbernheim, Germany), KOHN/WEISSKOPF (Wallerstein and
Kleinerdlingen,Germany), LANDAU (only adopted
on leaving Russia/Belarus or later)/FREDKIN (?)
(Gomel, Mogilev, Chernigov, Russia/Belarus)


Doug Cohen
 

There is a short story by (I think) Isaac Bashevis Singer; I don't remember
the name of the story, and have been trying to find it for you for a week
but cannot.

The story is told >from the point of view of a seven-year-old boy who hides
in his Cheder while the melamed is murdered in a pogrom. He then cannot
understand why, when his mother and father survived, there is so much
sadness and anger between his parents. He cannot understand why his father
is so angry at having to pack up and leave their village, why they move to
America, why his mother cannot take joy in her pregnancy, etc. . . .

Sometimes, fiction tells the story better than non-fiction. I'm sorry I
don't remember the name of the story.

Doug Cohen
Lexington, MA
dmc@...