According to the listings on the Vital Search database, 1937 was the first year
for consolidating all the boroughs into a single listing and for reporting
stillbirths in NYC.

Stillbirths are listed in a seperate directory.

Dennis Donovan
Pensacola FL

"Lisa mentioned that the child was stillborn, and I respond that that's the
reason she can't find the death certificate. There were no fetal death
certificates in the U.S. before 1939."

There were fetal death certificates in the U.S. before 1939. The State of
Connecticut had "Certificate of a Stillbirth" forms that were being used at

from 1915-1922, when such certificates were issued for 4 siblings of my mother

in New Britain, CT.

Mark Shapiro
JGSNY
Researching KRECHEVSKY (Slonim), CZAPRAK (Warsaw),
ROZWADOWER (Warsaw), YEVISH (Granov)

In New York City they did issue death certificates for still born
deaths and they show in a separate part of the index >from the regular
deaths. You would have to ask the people who did the online index if
they incorporated the still born deaths or not into their work. The
Health Department is not going to be able to help because records of
that age have been transferred to the New York City Municipal
Archives.

I tried searching via Morse using the sounds like for the name and
filled in the age at death >from hours 0 to hours 23. I see a few
children who lived for minutes or hours but only saw three very early
(1880s) that had no age which I assume might be still born children.
So it is very possible the Italian Gen project did not incorporate the
still born index or that it is difficult to search them specifically on
their system.

My suggestion regardless would be to use the original index >from New
York City for 1918 and make sure you specifically look for the still
born deaths. Since you know more or less the exact date of death it
should not be too difficult to find but do not be surprised if the
certificate has mistakes with the name. (That is very possibly why you
are not finding it online even if they did include the still born
children in the online index.) It is also very possibly even though
the parents gave the child a first name that the death certificate
simply shows the child as "male" or "female" or possibly just "baby"
with the family name, i.e. Baby Gisser.

I would think this will work but otherwise a more laborious task would
be to try and look through the death certificates themselves. In New
York City they are sorted by borough and then by date. Since you know,
in this case, that the mother was at a hospital in the Bronx you could
look through the death certificates >from for that time period to see if
you find something that is not in the index.

The problem with the cemeteries is they do not keep that type of paper
work on file especially after nearly 100 years. And children's graves
were not as well documented and many times they put up smaller stones
(if any) and used softer materials which do not survive the years like
adult headstones. What you can look for at the cemetery is they
generally kept burial books in those years either in general or by
society which were kept by date, not name. Again since you know the
general date it should not be hard to find. Also some cemeteries are
good at keeping and sharing plot maps so you might be able to find a
child's grave on the map. It is also possibly however since the mother
died as well that they decided to bury the child with the mother. Some
times you see that on the headstone.

Allan Jordan

Lisabeth G Dashman wrote:

It has always been my understanding that a death certificate is needed in
order for a body to be transported to a cemetery. [...] I have spent a lot
of time searching for a death certificate for the infant born to my
grandfather Isidor Gisser and his wife Dora. The family story is that the
child was stillborn, and that it and Dora died more or less together.

[...] Dora's death certificate: [...] died 29 September 1918 at
Lebanon Hospital (Bronx, NY) [...] buried at "Old" Mount
Carmel Cemetery [...]. So is the infant (under the name
Gesser), buried on 27 September 1918. The cemetery
has the location of the grave, but neither they nor the burial society
(Workmen's Circle) have any other records.

I have searched different ways online for a death certificate listing, and
have tried to reach the NYS Health Dept. for information.[...]

I had a look on the web - others may find more hopeful information.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/vr/vr-app-for-stop.pdf
indicates that
(a) there is a difference between a death certificate for someone that
lived and a fetal death certificate and
(b) you would not be able to get a copy of the latter, not being a
person entitled to apply for a such a certificate (see about halfway
down the screen).

http://www.stillparentsny.webs.com/ (in the recent discussion of
certificates following fetal deaths) also indicates that you would not
be eligible to obtain a fetal death certificate for a grandparent's
child.

Cecilia Nyleve

Dear Cousins,

Lisa Dashman is searching for a death certificate of an infant >from
1918 in the Bronx, N.Y. She knows the cemetery where the baby and
the mother, who died >from complications of the delivery two days
later, were buried, and also knows the hospital that was involved.

Lisa mentioned that the child was stillborn, and I respond that
that's the reason she can't find the death certificate. There were
no fetal death certificates in the U.S. before 1939. Until then,
the logic was that you needed a birth certificate to have a death
certificate. In 1939 the national recommendations changed, to
create a separate "Standard Certificate of Stillbirth (fetal death)"
and although I forget the year New York started to issue them, it
may have been that same year. Maybe somebody who has been to the
main branch of the New York Public Library recently remembers the
year that the N.Y.C. death indices start to include fetal deaths in
the back. New York City and State currently have a "Fetal Death
Certificate," and since 2011 a separate "Certificate of Still Birth."
Some historical information about fetal death certificates is at
http://www.nber.org/mults/docs/i_Fetappd.pdf .

For decades in the U.S., standards for birth and death certificates
and the type of information that they're supposed to include have
been issued and periodically revised. The Center for Disease Control
issues these standards nowadays, and the current standard for fetal
deaths is at http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/FDEATH11-03finalACC.pdf .
This is a template on which states are supposed to base their
information, although formatting varies widely. There are similar
standards for birth and regular death certificates.

Lisa reported that the hospital had no records >from that far back.
Hospitals almost never have patient records more than about 25 years
old, and that's only for children's records, which have to be
maintained longer than those of adults. If they have something 100
years old, it's generally for something historically interesting, not
individual patients.

But after saying all this, I confess that I don't know how a transit
permit for a stillborn child's body was issued in New York City in
1918, or what was even required.

Regards to all,

Ira Leviton
New York, N.Y.

Have you found a birth certificate for the child? If the child
was stillborn, that is never lived, it is possible that a birth
certificate was never issued so a death certificate may also
never have been issued.

Another possibility is that the death certificate has a different
first name. Since you know the date and borough of death you
could browse the microfilm of deaths for that date looking for a
match.

Alan Steinfeld
Scarsdale, NY

On Aug 2, 2014, at 4:09 PM, "Lisabeth G Dashman lisa.dashman@"

<verizon.net jewishgen@...> wrote:

Hello, Genners,
It has always been my understanding that a death certificate is

needed in order for a body to be transported to a cemetery. In
fact, several cemeteries have confirmed this fact. With that in
mind, I have spent a lot of time searching for a death certificate
for the infant born to my grandfather Isidor Gisser and his wife
Dora. The family story is that the child was stillborn, and that
it and Dora died more or less together.

I have a copy of Dora's death certificate: she died 29 September

1918 at Lebanon Hospital (Bronx, NY) of "Pneumonia of both lungs"
and the contributory cause of "Pregnancy and Labor." (Lebanon
Hospital merged with Bronx Hospital in 1962, and states they do not
have records that old.) She is buried at "Old" Mount Carmel Cemetery,
as is my grandfather. So is the infant (under the name Gesser),
buried on 27 September 1918. The cemetery has the location of the
grave, but neither they nor the burial society (Workmen's Circle)
have any other records.

I have searched different ways online for a death certificate

listing, and have tried to reach the NYS Health Dept. for information.
I would welcome your help on how to find this death certificate.

Hello, Genners,
It has always been my understanding that a death certificate is needed in
order for a body to be transported to a cemetery. In fact, several
cemeteries have confirmed this fact. With that in mind, I have spent a lot
of time searching for a death certificate for the infant born to my
grandfather Isidor Gisser and his wife Dora. The family story is that the
child was stillborn, and that it and Dora died more or less together.

I have a copy of Dora's death certificate: she died 29 September 1918 at
Lebanon Hospital (Bronx, NY) of "Pneumonia of both lungs" and the
contributory cause of "Pregnancy and Labor." (Lebanon Hospital merged with
Bronx Hospital in 1962, and states they do not have records that old.) She
is buried at "Old" Mount Carmel Cemetery, as is my grandfather. So is the
infant (under the name Gesser), buried on 27 September 1918. The cemetery
has the location of the grave, but neither they nor the burial society
(Workmen's Circle) have any other records.

I have searched different ways online for a death certificate listing, and
have tried to reach the NYS Health Dept. for information. I would welcome
your help on how to find this death certificate.

Thank you in advance!

Best regards,
Lisa Dashman
Croton, NY