Manifest Residence and sex change? - BOGATIN/BEGATIN #general


COMCAST Pop
 

The Hamburg departure records show Moses BOGATIN age 33 >from Lida (Belarus?)
with his three male children, Meier (9), Schmuel (7), and Hilel (4) departing
Hamburg on Dec 22, 1891 aboard the German Empire bound for Hartlepool, UK.
Their final destination is listed as New York via Liverpool.

On January 9, 1892 a family arrived in NYC aboard the Adriatic >from Liverpool.
They were Moses BEGATIN (33) with his three children, Meier (male age 9),
Schume(d?) (Female age 7) and Hild (Female age 4). They are listed as being
Swedes >from G Burg (probably Gothenburg?).

This looks very much like the same family except for the residence and sex
change. I was unable to find any other people with similar names arriving on
the East coast >from 1891-1900 using Ancestry, Ellis Island or Steve Morse.

I know that Moses was naturalized in Philadelphia in 1897, so he must have
arrived earlier. His naturalization records do not show an arrival date or
ship name.

Has anyone else seen such a distinct change between departure and arrival
records? Any other thoughts as to how I might find them if these are not the
same family? Moses' oldest sons in the US were Myer, Samuel, and Harry.

Mary-Jane Roth
Alexandria VA


Emily Garber
 

Mary-Jane Roth <greenst@comcast.net> wrote:

The Hamburg departure records show Moses BOGATIN age 33 >from Lida
(Belarus?) with his three male children, Meier (9), Schmuel (7), and Hilel (4)
departing Hamburg on Dec 22, 1891 aboard the German Empire bound for
Hartlepool, UK. Their final destination is listed as New York via Liverpool.

On January 9, 1892 a family arrived in NYC aboard the Adriatic from
Liverpool. They were Moses BEGATIN (33) with his three children, Meier
(male age 9), Schume(d?) (Female age 7) and Hild (Female age 4). They
are listed as being Swedes >from G Burg (probably Gothenburg?).
[snip]
Has anyone else seen such a distinct change between departure and arrival
records? Any other thoughts as to how I might find them if these are not the
same family? Moses' oldest sons in the US were Myer, Samuel, and Harry.
There are two additional sources of manifests for travel via UK ports
(available via Ancestry and Find My Past) that one should check for
comparison purposes. On Ancestry they are called "UK, Outward Passenger Lists,
1890-1960" and "UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960." Within the first
database, I located the same family leaving Liverpool on the S.S. Adriatic -
clearly Moses, Meier, Schmuel and Hilel.

One should also compare the passengers surrounding the family on the lists.
In this case, the family listed after your target family is the same on both
the Hamburg and NY manifests.

It is clear when one looks at the NY manifest and the Hamburg one that the
children's names were Meier, Schmuel and Hilel. The indexer of the NY manifest
did not transcribe the names correctly.

The Swedish designation is transcribed correctly, but is likely an error
introduced in the UK when the manifest was prepared.

As for their "sex change," yes, I have seen mistakes like these made when
manifests were prepared.

Emily Garber
Phoenix, AZ
http://www.kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/yurovshchina/index.html

Researching:
Labun (Lubin/Yurovshchina), Ukraine: GARBER, MAZEWITSKY, MALZMANN, ZABARSKY;
Annopol (near Rivne), Ukraine: LIDERMAN; Koziany, Belarus: WILENSKY, EPSTEIN;
Radautz: LIEBROSS, WENKERT, SCHAFFER; Ustechko, Torskie and Zaleszczyki, Ukraine:
LIEBROSS, WENKERT, ETT


Susan&David
 

These are the same people.

My father went >from Hamburg to England aboard the Marylebone and thence to
New York via Liverpool in 1913. I had a complete list of all the passengers
on his ship >from Hamburg. I traced the subsequent paths of all of the US
bound passengers. I found that the passengers listed close together on the
Hamburg list were also listed close together on their US bound ships.

My information was submitted to the Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild,
where you can see it. Google ISTG and search that site for Marylebone

In your case there were 39 passengers aboard the German Empire, 35 were
bound for NY.

On the same manifest page on the Adriatic, Jan 9, 1892, along with the
BEGATIN family, I found 15 of them. Passengers #3,5,6-17 and 19.

David Rosen
Boston, MA

On 7/17/2015 5:39 PM, Mary-Jane Roth greenst@comcast.net wrote:
The Hamburg departure records show Moses BOGATIN age 33 >from Lida (Belarus?)
with his three male children, Meier (9), Schmuel (7), and Hilel (4) departing
Hamburg on Dec 22, 1891 aboard the German Empire bound for Hartlepool, UK.
Their final destination is listed as New York via Liverpool.

On January 9, 1892 a family arrived in NYC aboard the Adriatic >from Liverpool.
They were Moses BEGATIN (33) with his three children, Meier (male age 9),
Schume(d?) (Female age 7) and Hild (Female age 4). They are listed as being
Swedes >from G Burg (probably Gothenburg?).

This looks very much like the same family except for the residence and sex
change. I was unable to find any other people with similar names arriving on
the East coast >from 1891-1900 using Ancestry, Ellis Island or Steve Morse.

Mary-Jane Roth
Alexandria VA


Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Posters replying to the original query have various explanations why people
are listed in the same order or various errors are made on Hamburg or UK or
New York Passenger Lists for the same sailing. The fact is that all the
passenger lists are made up >from ticketing information, so they don't line
people up at each port and check to see if they are in the same order,
friends don't line up together, families don't line up together if tickets
were bought at different times, and they don't try to determine whether
children are boys or girls. They simply copy the list made >from tickets
bought - with whatever errors they might make in the process.

It is like indexing. If you digitize 2000 names, you might make a few (or a
lot of) errors. The actual passengers were not involved.

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ


ab.cohen@...
 

It was not only immigrant Jews whose young children might have confused the
immigration officers. It was normal until at least the mid to late 1800s in
England for boys to wear the same clothes as girls. So-called breeching, at
any age between 3 and 8 years, was a major event when boys were first clothed
in their breeches like a small adult. Since both sexes usually wore their hair
longer than today's fashions it must have been very confusing at times.

Alan Cohen,
researching DEITSCH, KUTNOWSKI (Poland), COHEN, ROMANOFSKY, GLAZER (Ukraine and
Bessarabia)

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Eva Lawrence
 

Sally is quite right: you have to remember that 19th-century lists were
hand-written in the first place, so there was a lot of room for error in
copying out people's names. I've found an unknown Louise in a census index,
and when I went back to the microfilm I saw that it was a badly-written
Lionel whom I knew all about.

Eva Lawrence
St Albans, UK.

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