Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
Maida Dacher posted as follows:
"Could the names Lipe and Alter be used interchangeably? My great
grandmother's parents were Alter and Pesia. On material I got off the JRL
indexing for my fathers town tells me that people with the same last name
my grandmother's maiden name had Lipe and Pesia. Is it possible that
grandfather used both names."
The name Alter was one of those names that were in use for certain general
purposes in combination with other already existing names of an
individual. This was particularly the case for some one (an infant, child)
who was seriously ill. There is a long tradition in Judaism (and some
other religions) that if one uses a name like Alter (meaning "the old one")
that the devil coming to take the person will not be able to recognize that
this is the correct one and will pass him by.
Thus, the already existing name of the person had attached to it (or
substituted for it, in some cases) the name Alter. This led to names such
AnyName demitkare Alter
The nickname Alterko was afterwards used for such people. The same was
true of females who were given the name Alta or Alte, with the nickname
Altka. The same type of Hebrew double names as above was then used for
women in order to record their (new) correct name in a get, for example.
Thus, Maida's gg grandfather could have had the name Lipe (which is a
derivative >from Yiddish names like Lipman and Liberman) originally, and was
given the name Alter for the above reason. He then had two different names
that could appear on different archival documents.
Prof. G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel
Scott Rosenberg <sdavidr@...>
There has been much discussion of Jewish names, specifically how it
could be that a mother and daughter have the same middle name.
Let me point out first that, if the mother were deceased and the baby
had somehow been born, the baby would have been named after the mother
using her full name, or the baby would have been named after another
person, and, in any case, that does not appear to be the situation
originally posted here.
More importantly, the issue with two similar names, Rivka Leah for the
mother and Hana Leah for the daughter, for example, is whether the
middle name, Leah, is independent of the given first name. If the
answer to that question is yes, one would not expect to find a
mother-daughter name combination of Rivka Leah and Hana Leah. But, if
the answer is no, and if Rivka Leah is an entirely different name >from
Hana Leah, the answer would be yes. This is a matter of some import in
Jewish law, and I believe rabbis have decided in favor of both options.
Perhaps a more learned member of this list could provide us with
Searching: SOSNITZER, LITVIN/LITWIN (all spellings), LEVITAN (all
spellings), Bobroisk and Smorgon, Belarus; GLICKMAN/GLECKMAN (or other
spellings) Vitebsk, Smorgon and Minsk, Belarus; and Minnesota, Seattle,
Washington and Chicago, Illinois, USA; and Argentina; YAFFEY,
KAPLITZ/KOPLITZ/CAPLITZ (or other spellings) and, SHARP, SHART, SHARF,
SHARFSKY , Pogir, Pogiary, Kovno and Vilna, Lithuania, South Africa;
Australia; and Minnesota, North Dakota and Chicago, IL, USA; ROSENBERG,
Minnesota and North Dakota, USA; ROSENBLATT, Pogir, Pogiary, Kovno and
Vilna, Lithuania, and South Africa.
How are there two sisters given the same name? No middle or Jewish name was used.
This was not a Sephardic family.
1 st Hani, my GG Grandmother b. May 6, 1866, d. August 3, 1905 I have her official
2 nd Hani b. Mar. 16, 1869, M. Nov. 5 1898
I have her marriage record
Both born to same parents Jakob Klein and Fani Stalhberger, Borsod-Abauj-Zemplen,
Joanne Cadis, California, USA
BERGER, LOWENBERGER, Novisad, Yugoslavia (now Serbia)
BROWN, BRAUN, DEUTSCH, FRISCH,
FUERMAN, HERSKOVITS, HALMOS, HARTMANN, KLEIN, MARKASTEIN,
MOSKOVITS, PLFANCZENBAUM, SCHONSTEIN, SCHWARTZ, SPIELBERGER,
STAHLBEERGER VEISZ, WEISZ,
WEISZLOVITZ. Hungary: Alsocsecse, Alsoszolca, Budapest, Basko, Csece
David & Diana Laufer
Another possibility is that the first Hani died in infancy, the second Hani
being your GG Grandmother.
Subject: Re: names
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018
How are there two sisters given the same names?I think you have to consider that there was only one Hani, and whether
one of their birth records was mistranscribed. When making a decision
between a badly-written 'March' and 'May' guesswork could be involved,
and I note that you don't have two parallel certificates for any of the
two Hanis' life events.