its my understanding that when a family has gotten the name of a town as a
surname that that is where the family had come >from at SOME point - BUT
this would have been unlikely when the family lived in THAT town - but were
living in another town -for example Bryna Berdichefsky living in Kremensug
was likely given that name while living in Kremensug because her family was

from Berdichev. The Russian Gov. I believe I recall passed several edits

requiring
jews to adopt surnames but this was not uniformily enforced until the 1830's?
I believe. Its in many books you can double check the exact date.

Steve Rivkin

Moderator's note: You are correct. When a "stranger" came to live in a
new town, they were known as 'Yankel Berditchever', or Yankel >from Berditchew -
or whatever town they originated from.

It was indeed not unusual for Jewish and non-Jewish families to assume the
name of their shtetl. When it was decreed, possibly as early as the 13th
century, that all persons must have a surname, often the one that came most
quickly to mind was the name of the town. In my background, my Glukhovsky
branch probably stemmed >from Glukhov in the Ukraine; there are a number of
families with this name including the Evangelical leaders in the Lutheran
movement in Kiev. Another branch, Mariampolsky probably stemmed >from the
shtetl of Mariopol. The Berdichevskys stemmed >from Berdichev; the Kosowsky
family stemmed >from Kosova, etc.etc. etc.

Regards,
Estelle Reingold

Geographically based surnames are rather common,for example:
KOVNER derived >from KOVNO
PINSKER >from Pinsk
POZNER >from Posen
WARSHAVSKI >from Warsaw
YERUSHALMI >from Yerushalayim

and add infinitum.
Abe Nutkis Jersey City,NJ

Hello (>from Paris/France) Dale,
My father and gdfather were >from a "shtetl" Borstchaga very near to Kiev,
already seeming to be part of Kiev itself, and their name -my name before I
married- is: Vinograde. Vinograde is the name of at least 3 cities of Ukraine.
I think this could be an answer for you.
I started my researches a few months ago and can't ,at this time, make an
other relation between the name and the cities. But I hope to find it one day
with the help of Jewishgen .
Best regards.
Madeleine Alezra/Vinograde

Dear Madeleine

Did you know that the famous GRADE family of impresarios,(Lord) Lew
Grade,(Lord) Bernard Delfont and Leslie,father of Michael Grade,were born
in Ukraine with the surname VINOGRADSKY?

Ric Cooper
Gosport,UK
LEWINSTEIN >from Berdichev,ADLER >from Ternopil,YAROSHEVSKY and SHAPOCHNIKOV

from Odessa

--- Original Message -----
From: <Madalz@aol.com>
To: Ukraine SIG <ukraine@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 8:25 AM
Subject: [ukraine] Re: surnames

Hello (>from Paris/France) Dale,
My father and gdfather were >from a "shtetl" Borstchaga very near to Kiev,
already seeming to be part of Kiev itself, and their name -my name before

I married- is: Vinograde. Vinograde is the name of at least 3 cities of
Ukraine.

I think this could be an answer for you.
I started my researches a few months ago and can't ,at this time, make an
other relation between the name and the cities. But I hope to find it

one day with the help of Jewishgen .

Best regards.
Madeleine Alezra/Vinograde

MODERATORS NOTE:
When copying a letter that you are responding to - PLEASE do not copy
the entire letter including the "End of Digest Message".

To add to the discussion what may be an exception, My ggrandfather's
surname, researched by my cousin who speaks and writes Russian, was
Chernorudsky named after the small village of Chernorudka (Black River)
which I understand was just outside of Berdichev. My grandmother always
said she was >from Berdichev. Her father was the patriarch, money lender of
the village and owned the mikvah. I thought he perhaps got the name
Chernorudsky either because in the mid 1850's to 1900 he was the village
patriarch. If that is not the case, then perhaps it was related to his
role as the manager of an aristocratic Russian woman's estate. He traveled
all over Europe to sell the make business deals about her estate. I am
wondering if this information is incorrect and the name Chernorudka could
have referred to the estate.

Diane Claussen
Researching: REDMAN (NIDEKOLIN), Ladyzhinka; SHPARAGO, Dubovo, Uman
District; SMASON (SMASONOWICH) Grodno; KNOPF, Philadelphia; KRIEGMAN near
Berdichev (?); CHERNORUDSKY (SHARE), Chernorudka in Berdichev; BRICHKE and
GECHT

Chernorudka does not mean "black river", it in fact means "black ore".

Roman Vilner
Vilner, Pinchuk, Lieberman- Belarus
Shmulenson- Ukraine

Hi - I'm looking for guidance with two questions on surnames based on
others' experiences.
My family name in Lithuania (and probably Belarus before that) was
Charn or Charnoo (meaning black), with the Ch pronounced as in church.

I have assumed that due to the vagaries of spelling and
transliteration, I should also accept spellings that begin with C, H,
K, Kh, Ts, Cz etc. My question is regarding G. I know it was
sometimes used interchangeably with the initial letter H (e,g,, Hirsh
= Girsh, Heiman = Geiman). Because our initial sound was actually Ch
as in church, and because no one whom I know to be in our family has a
name spelled with G, I've been ignoring names that start with G. Any
thoughts on whether I should include them in my searches?

(I should add that I don't have access to any of the authoritative
books on Jewish surnames - I'm disabled and generally spend all my
time in my house.)

Next question: Charn has a consonant, followed by a vowel, followed
by consonants r and n. Should I consider in my search names that are
somewhat similar but follow the pattern Consonant - vowel - r - vowel
- n, such as Khoron? How about Consonant- r - vowel - n, such as
Khron?

Again, no one whom I know to be in our family has those spellings, but
in the 1858 box taxpayers list, my primary document, there were
Khorons and Khrons in our small town in addition to Charnos, and I
don't know whether excluding them >from the start is distorting my
searches badly.

And very specifically, even though according to the Soundex system,
Charno and Grin sound the same, I refuse to believe the name could
have gotten quite that distorted. Opinions, anyone?

Many thanks for anyone's insight - Judith Singer