Rabbi Matisyahu Treves #rabbinic
Yisrael Asper <yisraelasper@...>
I finally looked in closer detail than ever into a vexing issue in
Jewish genealogy that I know others may wish to chime against but
I'm just offering my opinions: The MaHaRaM Mi Padua was the son of
Rabbi Yitchak Katznelbogen (of Prague) also called Rabbi Yitchak
(Katznelbogen) (of Katzenelenbogen) in turn he was the soninlaw of
Rabbi Yechiel Luria of Brisk brother of Rabbi Yochanan Luria of
Worms who was the author of Sefer Hadracha and son of Rabbi Aharon
Luria of Alsace.
from this point on there is controversy. The longest version which Ihave advocated without vouching for the names and appellations or
denying other possible connections to Rabbi Matisyahu Treves goes
like this: Rabbi Aharon Luria of Alsace was the husband of a woman
named Miriam and son of a Rabbi Nathaniel Luria the son of a Rabbi
Yechiel Luria also known Rabbi Yehuda Luria he was the son of Rabbi
Shimshon (Luria) (of Erfurt) husband of a woman called Miriam the
daughter of Rabbi Shlomo Spira of Heilbronn also called Rabbi Shlomo
Spira of Spira the son of Rabbi Shmuel Spira of Spira whose wife was
the daughter of Rabbi Matisyahu Treves (of Provence) also called
Rabbi Matisyahu Treves (of Paris) the father of Rabbi Yosef Treves
of Paris and the son of Rabbi Yosef (Treves) (the Great) of
Marseilles >from the family of Rabbeinu Yehuda Sir Leon of Paris who
is also known simply as Rabbeinu Yehuda of Paris (when speaking of
him amongst those involved in political activities on behalf of the
Jews). He was the son of Rabbeinu Yitzchak the son of Rabbeinu
Yehuda of Paris (the other one naturally).
Competing versions can dwindle the above tremendously when combined
and say say instead: "Rabbi Aharon Luria of Alsace was the son of
Rabbi Nathaniel Luria the son of Rabbi Yechiel Luria and some say
his name was Rabbi Yehuda Luria, his father in turn was Rabbi
Shimshon Luria who was not identical with Rabbi Shimshon (Luria) (of
Erfurt) though both were be >from the same family. Rabbi Aharon
Luria of Alsace married Miriam daughter of Rabbi Shlomo Spira or
Rabbi Shmuel Spira; Rabbi Shmuel Spira's son for sure being called
Rabbi Shlomo Spira. Their stories got mixed up because both for
short can be called R"SH. Either Rabbi Shmuel Spira or Rabbi Shlomo
Spira married the daughter of Rabbi Matisyahu Treves who was not
known as Rabbi Matisyahu Treves (of Provence) or Rabbi Matisyahu
Treves (of Paris). It's said Rabbi Matisyahu Treves had lived in
Spain; learning there and returning to France once an expulsion
decree against the Jews was lifted. He was the son of Rabbi Yosef
(Treves) (the Great) , Av Bais Din of Paris and so should not be
called Rabbi Yosef (Treves) (the Great) of Marseilles. Rabbi Yosef
(Treves) (the Great) was >from the family of Rabbeinu Yehuda Sir Leon
of Paris known simply as Rabbeinu Yehuda of Paris son of Rabbeinu
Yitzchak son of Rabbeinu Yehuda of Paris."
With repeating names and places and common events and confusion of
generations I think that a longer version got cut shorter.
Judy Wolkovitch <judywolk@...>
In the Jewish Chronicle of 1896 there are a series of articles by
Lucien Wolf entitled "The Treves Family in England." The first
article is subtitled "The Alleged Descent >from Rashi, and some
hypotheses." I mention this because of the extensive bibliography
he lists. None of the books appear to be in Hebrew. Some of them
are in German
If anyone would like a copy of the bibliography I can sent an
All right, here's my two cents.
I can't add much to this but one thing I do know is that the MaHaRaM
Padua was born in 1482, and his grandfather R. Yechiel Luria was
born 1430. Furthermore according to my information (don't know the
source sorry), Miriam Spira was born in 1403, and R. Aharon Luria
was born in 1413. Going up in the generations, R. Shimshon Luria
must have been born at the latest around 1350, and this is what my
Working down >from R' Matityahu Treves who was born in 1325, Miriam
Spira couldn't have been born before 1385. It would seem highly
unlikely that she could have married R. Shimshon Luria, rather she
must have married R. Aharon Luria.
My information states that R. Yehuda Sir Leon was either R. Yosef
Treves the Great's grandfather or his great-grandfather. Of course
the Treves family lineage is known up to Rashi through the RiBaM.
Incidentally can anyone clarify the Sir Leon connection? And is
this Luria family connected with the Ari z"l at all? I have never
been able to find any information regarding his yichus.
In following the discussions of the Treves family I note that no one
has referred to the numerous articles which have discussed these
points repeateadly by many (including by myself) in Avotaynu over
Moreover, these genealogies are discussed at length in my new book,
"The Lurie Legacy," published by Avotaynu.
Secondly, the above mentioned book also includes the EPSTEIN family
genealogy (yes - numerous trees also included) and thus the
genelaogy of Samuel Avigdor Tosefa.
Why we keep trying to reinvent the wheel beats me.
Dr. Neil Rosenstein
Yisrael Asper <yisraelasper@...>
In response to Jonathan Cohen's dating in his post of 2004.06.08,
listed below are my datings.
Genealogical date listings get awfully mixed up making you wonder.
Sometimes they do. My greatgrandmother Hinda Renki Arak was born in
the 1870's and her brother the famous Rav Meir Arak in 1855. If
Rabbi Aharon Luria's date of birth was 1413, and if as I read he
died in 1456 the same year as the Encyclopedia Judaica says he
attended a famous rabbinical conference he died in his 40's. So him
having died a relatively young man can then make it reasonable if
necessary to adjust his lifespan to still be a shorter span. If his
wife Miriam Spira was born in 1403,? and Rabbi Aharon Luria in 1413?
You would think it would more likely be the other way around if a
choice would have to be made. Since women would more likely be
married while there was more likelihood of them having children.
If you have 25 years to a generation and have Rabbi Matisyahu Treves
born as he is said to have been about the year 1325 and make it
exactly 1325 we run into trouble. First if Rabbi Matisyahu Treves'
daughter married Rabbi Shmuel Spira at least, you land up with Rabbi
Matisyahu Treves born in 1325, his daughter in 1350 and her son
Rabbi Shlomo Spira in 1375 who in turn has Miriam Spira in 1400 you
only have adjusting a little forward for her but it requires half a
generation adjustment if we have her being born in 1413 together
with her husband Rabbi Aharon Luria to match their ages.
1430 as the year for Rabbi Yechiel Luria's birth makes his lifespan
short if what I read is true that he died in 1470. If we are to
wonder about the accuracy, it's to be wondered whether early death
really struck these people or squashed dating on charts and I've
seen some datings that are unbelievable in the extreme on charts.
If you advance the year in which Rabbi Matisyahu Treves was born
backward 25 years and have 20 years to a generation you land up with
the Maharam Mi Padua born in 1480 according to my long version. The
point is the dates you gave don't prove your case or our's. I don't
receive Avotaynu but look forward, to reading "The Lurie Legacy,"
now that I know of it's existence.