Sense of place, sense of people #ukraine


Andrew Blumberg <ajb61@...>
 

Tom,

My grandmother was >from Kolki in Volhynia. She came to the US in 1920. As
you mention the area changed hands frequently. She used to call it "Polisha
Russia", told stories about various armies moving through the town and she
witnessed hangings of Jews in the center of town. I don't believe that she
identified as Galician, Ukrainian or anything other than Jewish.

Regards,

Andrew Blumberg

Researching: HIMELFARB or GIMELFARB - Kovel, Ukraine; KIPPELMAN, KIPILMAN or
KIPELMAN - Kolki, Ukraine


Ida & Joseph Schwarcz
 

There are/were linguistic boundaries of the Yiddish language which were not
always congruent with national boundaries. There is a major work on this (I
forget the title just now) by Marvin Herzog which you can get in any large
research library. Thus, the Yiddish spoken by my parents, >from Ukraine, was
the same as the Yiddish spoken in Romania. Many Jews in Belarus considered
themselves Litvaks and spoke Yiddish with the Litvak accent and grammar.
Galitzianer Yiddish could be compared to the Yiddish spoken in Poland and
Hungary.
Sincerely,
Ida Selavan SchwarczArad, Israel


Dr. Joseph M. Schwarcz
Dr. Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Tappuah 7/3, Arad
IL-89053, Israel

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Chatt [mailto:tomchatt@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 8:51 AM
To: Ukraine SIG
Subject: [ukraine] Sense of place, sense of people


I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as Galician
and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns? Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas whose
borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people not
taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA


Tom Chatt
 

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as Galician
and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns? Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas whose
borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people not
taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA