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Father and son with same given name I have come across #general


Sally Bruckheimer
 

"
The custom of not naming children after living relatives is only in Ashkenazi circles. Many Sephardic Jews commonly give names of living parents to their children.
I am not familiar with surnames from Moldova (despite having ancestry in Kishinev), but to me your last name BUZILA sounds like it could have Sephardic origins"
 
The naming of children after grandparents, living or dead, was followed in Western Europe Ashkenazi as well as Sephardi. But the problem I see in this statement, is assuming a strange name is Sephardic. There are many strange names among Ashkenazi. With many ethnic groups withing a region, using many languages, it is no wonder that we find strange names, without assuming any origin. Jews had to be at least somewhat familiar with the languages used in their area, as they bought and sold with non-Jews, and they dealt with governments.
 
We need to keep open minds when doing genealogy. Yes, you can guess where somebody may have come from, if it helps find records in that area - I have done that, looking for my ggrandmother's family in St. Louis, and ultimately finding them in NYC; and in another line, finding their origin in wonderful records.
 
But Guggenheim's Jewish Family Name book suggests BUZILA comes for the Arabic for 'underweight coins'. Whether that is right or not, I don't know, but she agrees with me on the origin of Bruckheimer.
 
You can also check Beiden's books.
 
Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ


Steven
 

 
Thank you, Sally. As far as I know, both instances of the son being named after the father, are from Ashkenazi families. One from my father in laws maternal line and one from my mother in laws paternal line. Both of my in laws DNA results on Ancestry have confirmed that. 
 
BUZILA is my paternal line, and there is knowledge that there is Sephardim in that lineage, and that was also confirmed when I took my father’s DNA. I, however, have been told on two separate occasions, that BUZILA in Romanian means ‘large nose’ or ‘large mouth’, and have always assumed they took that surname in the late 18th or early 19th century in Bessarabia. 
 
Thank you,
Steve Buzil
 
researching:
BUZILA and KILYAN from present day Moldova  
GRUBER and FEINGOLD from present day Ukraine
SEIDLER/ZEIDLER, GROSSBARD, BERLIN, WICZYNSKY, PTAKEWICZ, GOODMAN, DOBROSZKA and BROWN/BRAUN from present day Poland.
PORTNOY, GERSHON and OFSAIOF/OVSAIOVICH from present day Lithuania
MNUSHKIN and KOLVARACHIK from present day Belarus
EISENSTEIN and ZALIO from present day Romania
 
 
From: Sally Bruckheimer
Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 14:05:13 EDT 

 

"
The custom of not naming children after living relatives is only in Ashkenazi circles. Many Sephardic Jews commonly give names of living parents to their children.
I am not familiar with surnames from Moldova (despite having ancestry in Kishinev), but to me your last name BUZILA sounds like it could have Sephardic origins"
 
The naming of children after grandparents, living or dead, was followed in Western Europe Ashkenazi as well as Sephardi. But the problem I see in this statement, is assuming a strange name is Sephardic. There are many strange names among Ashkenazi. With many ethnic groups withing a region, using many languages, it is no wonder that we find strange names, without assuming any origin. Jews had to be at least somewhat familiar with the languages used in their area, as they bought and sold with non-Jews, and they dealt with governments.
 
We need to keep open minds when doing genealogy. Yes, you can guess where somebody may have come from, if it helps find records in that area - I have done that, looking for my ggrandmother's family in St. Louis, and ultimately finding them in NYC; and in another line, finding their origin in wonderful records.
 
But Guggenheim's Jewish Family Name book suggests BUZILA comes for the Arabic for 'underweight coins'. Whether that is right or not, I don't know, but she agrees with me on the origin of Bruckheimer.
 
You can also check Beiden's books.
 
Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ

 


Peter Cohen
 

Two possibilities come to mind:
1. The father died during the mother's pregnancy (I have also seen girl babies named after their mother who died in childbirth.)
2. Different middle names. You sometimes see revision lists with brothers with the same first name (such as Yosel Shlomo and Yosel Yitzchak). Not every document will list both first and middle name, which can lead to confusion.


Steven
 

Thank you for your reply. Number 2 is definitely a possibility for the instance from the early 19th century. For the one from the late 19th century, the Hebrew name on the headstone of the son is Meyer ben Meyer, so I’m assuming the father passed before the son was born.
 
Re: Father and son with same given name I have come across #general 
From: peter.cohen@...
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2020 14:24:11 EDT 

Two possibilities come to mind: 
1. The father died during the mother's pregnancy (I have also seen girl babies named after their mother who died in childbirth.)
2. Different middle names. You sometimes see revision lists with brothers with the same first name (such as Yosel Shlomo and Yosel Yitzchak). Not every document will list both first and middle name, which can lead to confusion.


 


Sally Bruckheimer
 

"2. Different middle names."

Our ancestors in Europe did not have middle names as we know them. Double names were common, however, with both parts being equal. My ggrandfather Abraham Samuel, for example, was called Abe or Sam at different times.

However, I have also seen birth records from Eastern Europe, with the baby and father having the same name, and the father has an age and occupation, so he is alive. I agree with the meaning of the post - perhaps either the father or son - or both - had double names, so the names aren't identical.

Sally Bruckheimer
Princeton, NJ


evaschec@...
 

I come from an Ashkenazi family. My father, David, was named after an uncle by marriage who had died just before he was born. He also had an uncle who was still alive whose name was also David, who died in 1982. My youngest brother, who was born in 1984, is named after this second uncle. So although my father and brother have the same first name they are named for people who had died. It looks like my brother is named after my father, but he is not. This may be one of the reasons it looks like sons are named after fathers, if one doesn't know the history behind the naming.

Regards,

Eva Schectman
Montpelier, VT (originally from Philadelphia, PA)

Researching SCHECTMAN in Fastov/Kiev, Ukraine, Fuchs in Starokonstantinov, Ukraine, Savar/Sawronsky/Sevrensky in Ostropol, Ukraine, Kanofsky/Kahonofsky in Ekaterinaslov, Ukraine. Krieger, Kohn, Reichman/Rajchman, Chajmkowitz in Lodz, Poland. Paster/stein in Kaunos, Lithuania, Rabinowitz in St. Petersburg, Russia or Kaunos, Lithuania.



Lawrence Weintraub
 

My grandfather Samuel was an immigrant from Russia (modern Ukraine) to Massachusetts. I was directed to a theoretical great grandfather, also Samuel, which I was dismissive of for the obvious reason.  It turns out that when they arrived here,  they became Samuel but they had different Hebrew names so there can be exceptions.
 
Lawrence Weintraub
Old Bridge, NJ 
 


Marla Cohen
 

My brother and my grandfather have the same Hebrew name. But they were named for two different ancestors , who coincidentally had the same name .
According to Ashkenazi tradition that can only occur if the said ancestors were dead.
Marla Cohen
Hartford,Ct.


tom
 

it's interesting that the name was samuel, because there's a whole long thread in the jewishgen archives about "samification", where immigrants to the united states adopted "american names", and "sam" was a particularly popular choice.   the key is that he became samuel after arriving, and not at his bris.
 
 
....... tom klein, toronto
 
 

Lawrence Weintraub wrote:
My grandfather Samuel was an immigrant from Russia (modern Ukraine) to Massachusetts. I was directed to a theoretical great grandfather, also Samuel, which I was dismissive of for the obvious reason.  It turns out that when they arrived here,  they became Samuel but they had different Hebrew names so there can be exceptions.
 
 
 
 


traceygen@...
 

It may be that they're just not very traditional. It actually happened in my Ashkenazic-but-very-not-religious family in Vienna, Germany and New York.

My great-grandfather Henry (Heinrich) was named after his father when he was born in Vienna in 1878. Of course, they quickly learned why that was traditionally not a good idea: Henry's twin brother died three days later, and their father, the original Heinrich, died 11 days after the twins were born. But Henry lived until he died of a heart attack at 55 (same cause of death as the original Heinrich, and about the same age).

Also in the family are two Theodores who were named after their uncle, living at the time of their birth, but they didn't have the same misfortune. The original Theodore was born in Nahbollenbach, Germany in 1881 and got to America in 1938, was still living in 1948 at the age of 67. I don't know when he died. One of the Theodore nephews was born in Nahbollenbach in 1907, got to America in 1941, lived to 73. The other Theodore nephew was Henry's son, born in Brooklyn in 1905, lived to 1955. And that New York Theodore had a son Theodore Jr., who is still living at 84.