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Moses Hyam or Hyam Moses - name reversal in early 19th century #unitedkingdom


jlevy2008@...
 

Hello,

I'm trying to establish the full names of the parents of Benjamin Louis HYAM, born about 1817 in London, died 1870 in Swansea

In the censuses of 1841 and 1851, Benjamin was recorded with his mother, Sarah, and her second husband, Cosman COHEN.

On 19th November 1856, he married Lucy, the daughter of Jacob HADIDA in London's Great Synagogue. The transcribed marriage record (https://synagoguescribes.com/blog/person-details/?value=8176) shows that his father's Hebrew name was Chaim. This matches the inscription on his gravestone (https://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/Cemeteries/Swansea_Cemeteries/Burial_Townhill_A_293.htm) which gives his full name as Binyamin Yehuda ben Chayim. However, according to the 1851 Anglo-Jewry, his father was Moses HYAM (https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/c1851.php?rec=C1851C_0019985).

Now, on 3rd June 1812, a Hyam MOSES (Chayim ben Mosheh Shvab) married Sarah LEVY (Sarah bat Yehuda-Leib) in the Great Synagogue. See here https://synagoguescribes.com/blog/person-details/?value=2273

My question is whether it is likely that Hyam MOSES reversed his names and became known as Moses HYAM, with his wife, two sons and future generations bearing the surname HYAM?

Regards,

Justin Levy


Marshall Lerner
 

My grandfather was Moshe Chaim but his gravestone reads Chaim Moshe ben Shimon.Zev ha Levi. When I asked family members about the transposition I did not receive a satisfactory answer. As a result I have come to accept that it might simply be an error.I will follow this tread with interest.


Jeffrey Knisbacher
 

Double name reversal was very common. My late father Max Knisbacher was Markus Mendel on his Palestinian Citizenship Order (British Mandate)
of 11 January 1937 and entered the U.S. in October 1938 under that name. It was based on the Hebrew Mordecai Menahem. In the U.S. he reversed those names and the reversal was how we knew him growing up and is recorded on his tombstone. He always went by "Max" growing up in Berlin (born 1913) and made that official on his U.S. naturalization.  Jeff Knisbacher 


Sarah L Meyer
 

Yes, this was exceedingly common in the US.  I have seen it in my husband's non Jewish family many times.

--
Sarah L Meyer
Georgetown TX
ANK(I)ER, BIGOS, KARMELEK, PERLSTADT, STOKFISZ, SZPIL(T)BAUM, Poland
BIRGARDOVSKY, EDELBERG, HITE (CHAIT), PERCHIK Russia (southern Ukraine) and some Latvia or Lithuania
https://www.sarahsgenies.com


sbloom@...
 

I've seen it with just about any double named individual, especially if it was Hebrew/Yiddish in the 19th century.


Peter Cohen
 

Name reversal, or simply going by a middle name was common, not only among immigrants, but also shows up in records from 19th century Eastern Europe.  You also see the same thing today among some people in Texas and Oklahoma.

Peter Cohen


jlevy2008@...
 

Hello everyone from the sweltering heat of Dubai,

Thank you all for your replies and interest.

I just wanted to clarify that I am asking about the likelihood of a man swapping his given name and his family name. 

The 1812 marriage recorded in the register of London's Great Synagogue indicates that the groom's given name was Hyam in English and Chayim in Hebrew. His English family name was apparently MOSES.

Is it likely that that he later chose to call himself Moses (given name) HYAM (family name) for civil purposes, i.e. change his family name? 

Were the family names used by the Jews of early 19th England fixed or was there a degree of fluidity?

Justin Levy


Steven Usdansky
 

In my family, one grandson of Chaim-Moshe was named that, two were named Moshe-Chaim. The reason for the reversal of the names remains a mystery.


Bob Friedman
 

Sorry, the last message was incomplete.

From 1885 onward Harris JACOBS became Jacob HARRIS, as his name appeared in official records until his death.
--
Bob Friedman
Brooklyn, NY


Bob Friedman
 

Harris JACOBS was born circa 1835 in Prussia and was married in London in 1857.  After immigration to the U.S., he and his family lived in Boston under that surname through the 1880 U.S. Census.  Shortly thereafter they moved to Omaha.  In the 1885 Nebraska state census, they were enumerated as the family of John [sic]  HARRIS
--
Bob Friedman
Brooklyn, NY


David Lewin
 

At 09:33 13/06/2020, jlevy2008@... wrote:
Hello everyone from the sweltering heat of Dubai,

Thank you all for your replies and interest.

I just wanted to clarify that I am asking about the likelihood of a
man swapping his given name and his family name.

The 1812 marriage recorded in the register of London's Great
Synagogue indicates that the groom's given name was Hyam in English
and Chayim in Hebrew. His English family name was apparently MOSES.

Is it likely that that he later chose to call himself Moses (given
name) HYAM (family name) for civil purposes, i.e. change his family name?

Were the family names used by the Jews of early 19th England fixed
or was there a degree of fluidity?

Justin Levy
_._,_._,_
Are you certain that the reversed names apply to the same individual
and not to different generations in that family?


A string of two names was used before they invented family
names. XY was simply X, the son of Y

Jews also often named a newborn after a deceased grandparent. So XY
could be read as X son of Y. Mostly that was the name of a
grandfather - but not always, of course. That would be too
simple. Giving the child the same personal name as the father became
a "modern" copying of the gentiles.

In Germany Jews did not take on family names until 1812 -
1834. There are a couple of such databases at Jewishgen of name
adoptions which I created some years back for the 1812 and 183427
West Prussia and Posen provinces. At that time the Jews were granted
citizenship in those territories and one condition was that they
adopt family names as had been practiced by their non-Jewish host
territories for generations.

David Lewin
London


David Lewin
 

At 12:47 13/06/2020, Steven I Usdansky via groups.jewishgen.org wrote:
In my family, one grandson of Chaim-Moshe was named that, two were
named Moshe-Chaim. The reason for the reversal of the names remains a mystery.
_._,_._,_
Had one of the Moshe-Chaim's died before the other was born?

David Lewin
London


jlevy2008@...
 

Thank you, Bob.

You have confirmed what I suppose I already suspected. People did reverse their secular given and family names. But it's great to hear some concrete examples.

I once knew a guy in the UK with the surname MORRIS. His grandfather or great-father appeared in secular records as Breslauer MORRIS. That was a pretty obvious case of name reversal. It did not take long to find the record of the adoption of the surname BRESLAUER by a man called Moritz.

Justin Levy
Dubai, UAE


David Lewin
 

Had one died before the other was born?


At 12:47 13/06/2020, Steven I Usdansky via groups.jewishgen.org wrote:
In my family, one grandson of Chaim-Moshe was named that, two were named Moshe-Chaim. The reason for the reversal of the names remains a mystery.


Diane Jacobs
 

Just to add some humor to this subject.
I have a great uncle Samuel Aaron
Singman who was born Aaron Samuel. His family told me he changed  it in the US, because he didn't want his initials to be ASS.

Diane Jacobs 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: jlevy2008@...
Date: 6/14/20 4:03 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: main@...
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] Moses Hyam or Hyam Moses - name reversal in early 19th century #unitedkingdom

Thank you, Bob.

You have confirmed what I suppose I already suspected. People did reverse their secular given and family names. But it's great to hear some concrete examples.

I once knew a guy in the UK with the surname MORRIS. His grandfather or great-father appeared in secular records as Breslauer MORRIS. That was a pretty obvious case of name reversal. It did not take long to find the record of the adoption of the surname BRESLAUER by a man called Moritz.

Justin Levy
Dubai, UAE
--
Diane Jacobs, Somerset, New Jersey