Topics

FamilySearch Christening records in 1870's New York #usa #general


Phil Karlin
 

I've recently come across christenings records for Jewish relatives on FamilySearch. There are several siblings for whom such records exists. They look identical to the birth records except for the label. Since Family History Centers are closed for Covid-19, I can't see the originals. Here's a link to one: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HQB6-NBZM?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=KJC2-V2Y

All I can glean from reading the database description is that it's a database constructed by FamilySearch, and it's not clear where they got the underlying info. It's possible that recent Hungarian Jewish immigrants with a desire to assimilate had it done for 6 daughters over a decade. (Four married Jews and had Jewish families, one did not, one didn't marry.) Or is it possible that it's just something that happened in NYC hospitals in the 1870's, with or without parental permission? Would it have happened in the hospital, or in a church?

What should I make of it?

Phil Karlin


Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

Phil,  
I suspect that it is just the way the info was transcribed and categorized.  It appears that Rebeke’s birth record was recorded in at least 2 places.   Note that one transcription included the certificate # while another one, using the same film, did not.   Also, I do not think it was usual to baptize an infant on the day of birth, but I’m not sure about that.

If you search for   rebeke wiener b 1870 in ny   these 3 records come up:   All have the same event date,  29 July 1870, but only one is is in a record set which includes christenings.  

   Microfilm #             database                                                             birth cert #
1. 1,322,029       https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HQB6-NBZM      not given

2   1,322,029      https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27BZ-RLR :        52185

3   1,315,318      https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27YF-RR8           not given


1st record.

Record Collection:
Document Information:
Reference ID 52185 
GS Film Number 1322029
Digital Folder Number 004193038 
Indexing Project (Batch) Number C59461-2
System Origin VR 
Record Number 12707191 
"New York Births and Christenings, 1640-1962", database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HQB6-NBZM : 21 January 2020), Rebeke Wiener, .


2nd record:  
  
"New York, New York City Births, 1846-1909," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27BZ-RLR : 11 Feb 2018), Rebeke Wiener, 29 Jul 1870; citing Manhattan, New York, New York, United States, reference cn 52185 New York Municipal Archives, New York; FHL microfilm 1,322,029.


3rd record: 
Record Collection:
Document Information:
Reference ID v 21 p 316 
GS Film Number 1315318
"New York, New York City Births, 1846-1909," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27YF-RR8 : 11 February 2018), Rebecca Weiner, 29 Jul 1870; citing Manhattan, New York, New York, United States, reference v 21 p 316 New York Municipal Archives, New York; FHL microfilm 1,315,318.

Barbara Mannlein
Tucson, AZ

On Jul 20, 2020, at 6:52 AM, Phil Karlin <philk@...> wrote:
I've recently come across christenings records for Jewish relatives on FamilySearch. There are several siblings for whom such records exists. They look identical to the birth records except for the label. Since Family History Centers are closed for Covid-19, I can't see the originals. Here's a link to one: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HQB6-NBZM?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=KJC2-V2Y

All I can glean from reading the database description is that it's a database constructed by FamilySearch, and it's not clear where they got the underlying info. It's possible that recent Hungarian Jewish immigrants with a desire to assimilate had it done for 6 daughters over a decade. (Four married Jews and had Jewish families, one did not, one didn't marry.) Or is it possible that it's just something that happened in NYC hospitals in the 1870's, with or without parental permission? Would it have happened in the hospital, or in a church?


David Oseas
 

For a period of time, the LDS church engaged in the controversial practice of posthumous baptism of Jewish individuals:  https://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html  They have since stopped the practice.

Regards,
David Oseas


Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

But those were not recorded in NYC records, b/c they were not contemporaneous..  The LDS baptisms were recorded ONLY in LDS records NOT municipal records.

Barbara Mannlein
Tucson, AZ.


On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:33 AM, David Oseas via groups.jewishgen.org <doseas=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

For a period of time, the LDS church engaged in the controversial practice of posthumous baptism of Jewish individuals:  https://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html  They have since stopped the practice.

Regards,
David Oseas _._,_._,_


Phil Karlin
 

Thank you Barbara.
So do you think that the "christening" was not one per se, but merely that the dataset included christenings, so a christening was assumed to have occurred by the dataset builder?
Keep in mind that I gave Rebeke as an example. The same thing happened for her siblings - they have christenings too. 

Is there information on the record image that's not in the index?
I'd love to know any or all of these facts from the image: Who made the original record? Birth location (hospital or home, street address). Date - birthdate vs. christening date vs. recording date.*  Was there a doctor or midwife attending and their name?

*Although the record we're looking at is dated July 29 1870, she appears on the 1870 Census, dated July 15, which says she was born in May.

And what if "christening" just means "naming" and I'm worked up in a lather over nothing, LOL?


Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 



On Jul 20, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Phil Karlin <philk@...> wrote:
Thank you Barbara.
So do you think that the "christening" was not one per se, but merely that the dataset included christenings, so a christening was assumed to have occurred by the dataset builder?

I’d guess that the birth info was included in a pile that included births as well as christenings… and then it was entered into a record book they created an all-inclusive title. 

I THINK THAT RECORDING CHRISTENINGS IN AMERICAN CIVIL RECORDS WOULD BE EXTREMELY RARE.   WONDER WHAT OTHER RESEARCHES KNOW?

When Covid 19 is in our memories, you’ll have to visit a FHL and call for the records… it would be interesting to see if the “christenings" were christenings in fact or that was the only  evidence of birth

Keep in mind that I gave Rebeke as an example. The same thing happened for her siblings - they have christenings too.  
       
             same city, same time frame  -  1868 - 1879

Is there information on the record image that's not in the index?
Depends on the record… some have more info, others less… these births were mostly at home, 
not all midwives were literate…. some were precise in entering info, others sloppy… some returned the cards in a timely way, others procrastinated (and in some cases, never returned them..  I think I read that 20% of births in the time frame you are working with were never recorded.  

You will have to call up each image when we can finally go to the centers.

I'd love to know any or all of these facts from the image:

Who made the original record? Birth location (hospital or home, street address). usually at home

Date - birthdate vs. christening date vs. recording date.* 

Was there a doctor or midwife attending and their name?   

*Although the record we're looking at is dated July 29 1870, she appears on the 1870 Census, dated July 15, which says she was born in May.  

People were notorious for not remembering DOB’s  — I’ve been at this for over 50 years… I see records where each and every time someone entered his OWN birthday it was different than the last time.   (just like spelling…..

And what if "christening" just means "naming" and I'm worked up in a lather over nothing, LOL?
      
 Keep my address… and when you find out please let me know.

Barbara Mannlein
Tucson, AZ


Barbara Ellman
 

Phil has asked:
Is there information on the record image that's not in the index?
I'd love to know any or all of these facts from the image: Who made the original record? Birth location (hospital or home, street address). Date - birthdate vs. christening date vs. recording date.*  Was there a doctor or midwife attending and their name?
 
Yes, there is more information on the record itself.  The location of the birth and the person who attended the birth be it doctor or midwife.  There is only the date of birth.
There are differences in what is on the certificate depending on the year as the Department of Health made changes.
I have noticed that when a midwife was involved, the midwife likely kept records of a number of births before reporting the births.  This sometimes led to issues with the actual date of birth.  My grandfather, born in 1888,  always celebrated the 17th as his birthday, but the birth certificate shows the 21st.
Hope this helps

--
Barbara Ellman

--
Barbara Ellman
Secaucus NJ USA
HASSMAN, SONENTHAL, DAUERMAN, LUCHS - Drohobycz, Ukraine
HIRSCHHORN, GOLDSTEIN, BUCHWALD - Dolyna, Ukraine
ELLMAN, COIRA, MAIDMAN - Minkovtsy, Ukraine
KAGLE, FASS - Ulanow, Poland


Phil Karlin
 

I have noticed that when a midwife was involved, the midwife likely kept records of a number of births before reporting the births.  This sometimes led to issues with the actual date of birth. 
Interesting point.  As I noted previously, the record we're looking at is dated July 29 1870, but she appears on the 1870 Census, dated July 15, which says she was born in May. Could the midwife have held her records for 2 months? 

Does anyone have any recommendations for general history reading on NYC Jewish life, particularly the Lower East Side, 1850-1880 or so? There's lots of stuff for the post 1880 Eastern European wave. Who gives the earlier Central Europeans some love?


EdrieAnne Broughton
 

Birth records, especially those attended at home were not as formal as they are not.  Wisconsin had a requirement to register births, but normally a midwife or doctor kept a journal or list of births and when they got enough saved up, they went to the county seat and put them all in at once.  The fault with dates are probably how good a record keeper the attendant was.  Sometimes a family member (mother, grandmother or aunt) attended home births.  My mother was born in her grandmother's bed and the doctor only arrived after the birth.  The parents intended her name to be Emma Lee, daughter of Jess and Annie Edrie.  Imagine Mom's surprise when she was 18 to find out that she was Edrie with no middle name.  Mom's family always called her Emma Lee, Dad and all her friends called her Edrie or Ed.  I got a copy of her birth record that was in her papers and while her birth date was correct, the date the record was recorded was almost a month later.  In the Births ledger almost a dozen babies were registered for the same doctor in the same week.  That's a lot of babies for one doctor performing home births.  Even now that county doesn't have a hospital.
    EdrieAnne Broughton
    Vacaville, California


Sherri Bobish
 


Note that there are two 1870 census for Manhattan.  The City believed it was under counted, and a second enumeration was done six months after the first enumeration.

Regards,

Sherri Bobish
Princeton, NJ

Details on that can be read here:
http://bklyn-genealogy-info.stevemorse.org/Census/1870/1870.CS.NYC.html

From above site:
The original census (or 1st Enumeration) was conducted
beginning 1 June 1870.  The 2nd Enumeration was conducted about
6 months later, in the December-January time frame.


Sherri Bobish
 


"I have noticed that when a midwife was involved, the midwife likely kept records of a number of births before reporting the births.  This sometimes led to issues with the actual date of birth."

I agree with the above.  When looking at microfilm of old NYC birth records I have run across multiple birth certs in a row with the same midwife's name on each.

I'm reasonably sure the midwife did not attend six births in one day!

I do think that the birth certs were filed in a bundle by the midwife whenever she could get around to it.

Circa 1900 NYC cracked down on getting birth certs filed.

Regards,

Sherri Bobish
Princeton, NJ