Hello Genners,

I'm not very familiar with researching in England or Australia and am reaching out for assistance trying to find some particular information about the family of a Michael (Chaim Chaikel) WEINSTEIN (abt. 1849 - 1918) of London.  He had a number of children and his descendants are fairly well documented, including by the late Ruth Silver and others.  Per his tombstone in Edmonton cemetery, his father's Hebrew name was Baruch.  However, I am trying to learn his mother's name and where he was born and/or lived prior to emigrating to London.

I have found the family in the UK Census from 1881 through 1911, as well as a number of vital records on JewishGen.  The 1891 census notes that he was from "Gronner" which the family believes to be Grodno; however, I think it is referring to Grodno gubernia and not Grodno city as I'm unable to find him in the 1858 Revision List for Grodno on JewishGen.  I hope to identify the specific town.

My understanding is that UK vital records don't have mother's names on them, is that correct?  Any other avenues to try to learn his mother's name?  I found a reference to a Probate document on Ancestry for Michael when he died in 1918 (https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1904&h=861549&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7579) which may hold promise for learning other information, perhaps leading to other clues.  Is anyone familiar with the process to get a copy of that document?

Another idea that I had to learn where they were from is to research his oldest children who were born in 'Russia'.  The best candidate seems to be his oldest son Harry (Henry) Moses Weinstein (Winston) born about 1872 and died in 1955 in South Brisbane, Australia.  Might there be Australian records that would have his specific town of birth?

Michael apparently had a brother named Simon who also emigrated to and lived in London with his wife Fanny and family who I found in the 1891 and 1901 Census but it seems less is known about him and, for the same reason as for Michael, I don't see an alternative to learn his mother's name or where he was from.  Simon wasn't present in either census entry and appears to have died between 1891 and 1901.

I would be happy to hear any other alternative suggestions.  Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide!

Regards,
Aaron Slotnik
Chicago, IL USA

Dear Aaron,

The website https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate enables you to search for a UK probate record and obtain a copy of the record and of a will, if there is one.  I did a search and found Michael's probate record from 1919 which shows that he died on 23rd October 1918.  I assume you already have a copy of this via Ancestry but if not you can reach it via the above website.

As for vital records, UK birth certificates record both father's and mother's names, but of course that's not much use if Michael was born elsewhere!  Marriage certificates record only the father's name.  It might be worth searching UK newspapers to see if you can find any further information about Michael.

Not sure this helps you much, but good luck in your search!

Kind regards, Philip Tepper (Manchester, UK)

Aaron,
Queensland Death records are meant to show the place of birth.
See: http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
However, there are no guarantees for a specific certificate. The box might be unreadable, it might be a vague "Russia", or it might be blank.
You can search for (and order) the death certificate of Henry Moses Winston at
https://www.familyhistory.bdm.qld.gov.au/
I can't find a burial record for him at
https://graves.brisbane.qld.gov.au/

A Henry Winston married a Margaret Blanche Hopkins in Queensland in 1934. Electoral Rolls on ancestry show that that Henry Winston was a farmer. I don't know if he was your Henry Winston, but I can't prove that he is not. Margaret Blanche Winston (who died in 1954) is buried at South Brisbane. If that is the correct Henry Winston, then the marriage record might be worth looking at.

I hope this helps,
Rodney Eisfelder
Melbourne, Australia

Aaron,
I think that the 1934 marriage of Henry Winston to Margaret Blanche Hopkins relates to your guy. His first wife, Sarah Jane (nee Baldwin), died in 1928. This is her death notice:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/151114686
Henry Moses Weinston married Sarah Jane Baldwin at Hemel Hempstead in 1893 according to https://www.freebmd.org.uk
The 1934 Queensland marriage is more likely to contain an accurate place of birth than the death record.

Rodney Eisfelder
Melbourne, Australia

At 16:05 24/10/2020, Philip via groups.jewishgen.org wrote:

Dear Aaron,

The website https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate enables you to search for a UK probate record and obtain a copy of the record and of a will, if there is one.  I did a search and found Michael's probate record from 1919 which shows that he died on 23rd October 1918.  I assume you already have a copy of this via Ancestry but if not you can reach it via the above website.

As for vital records, UK birth certificates record both father's and mother's names, but of course that's not much use if Michael was born elsewhere!  Marriage certificates record only the father's name.  It might be worth searching UK newspapers to see if you can find any further information about Michael.

Not sure this helps you much, but good luck in your search!

Kind regards, Philip Tepper (Manchester, UK)
_._,_._,_

There is an untruth being perpetrate here which I have so far not "sussed out". I think the ".gov.uk" is no longer true and that the UK Government has abrogated its responsibility in this respect.  A private outfit is masquerading behind a UK Government service

If you move from the page quoted  https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate ( which purports to be an official UK Government site ) and click on the bright Yellow button "START NOW >"it change to green with yellow frame momentarily and takes you to the search page which still PRETENDS to be a UK Government site

HOWEVER - you have now reached a site addressed as
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

and when I have ordered documents here I landed in the clutches of

 From: HMCTS Wills <HMCTSWills@...>

NOTE:    ironmountain.co.uk     no longer a UK.gov

Does anybody know of these changes?

Here one example:

X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.4
From: HMCTS Wills <HMCTSWills@...>
To: "david@..." <david@...>
Subject: RE: Contact Support Request
Thread-Topic: Contact Support Request
Thread-Index: AQHTaD5T9SxfAEB2lkm0ssvqODHKCqMp9lOQ
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 16:10:53 +0000
Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [10.195.56.56]
X-UKServers-IP: 193.30.233.17
X-Envelope-To: david@...

Good afternoon
 
Thank you for your email.  I am sorry to read that you are unable to access your requested document.
 
Your order is ready to download.  Please sign-in and (having been returned to the search page - do not search for your record again) go to the My Wills section located at the top of the screen, which lists all of your available documents for you to download at your leisure.
 
If the will is not annexed to the grant then you may need to download the will from a separate download link.  Please see below for an example:
 

 
If this problem persists, or your display is not showing any of the above, then please let me know and I will resolve this matter for you.
 
Kind Regards
 
Patrick O’Hagan
HMCTS Wills Helpdesk
 
 
 
From: no-reply@... [ mailto:no-reply@...]
Sent: 28 November 2017 11:45
To: HMCTS Wills
Subject: Contact Support Request
 
Order Number: 475578
Registered Email Address: david@...
Contact Name: David Lewin

Order Date: 22 November 2017 09:39

Surname
First name
Date of Probate
Registry
Estimated Delivery Date

LEHMANN
MARGOT
13 July 2001
Winchester
07 December 2017


User Query:
The probate grant speaks of an attached will but this was not attached

User Query Date: 28 November 2017 11:45

---

Iron Mountain (UK) Limited. Registered Office: 3rd Floor Cottons Centre, Tooley Street, London SE1 2TT. Registered in England & Wales, No. 01478540.

Visit our websites: www.ironmountain.eu

This email and its attachments are confidential under applicable law and are intended for use of the sender's addressee only, unless the sender expressly agrees otherwise, or unless a separate written agreement exists between Iron Mountain and a recipient company governing communications between the parties and any data that may be so transmitted. Transmission of email over the Internet is not a secure communications medium. If you are requesting or have requested the transmittal of personal data, as defined in applicable privacy laws, by means of email or in an attachment to email, you may wish to select a more secure alternate means of transmittal that better supports your obligations to protect such personal data.

If the recipient of this message is not the recipient named above, and/or you have received this email in error, you must take no action based on the information in this email. You are hereby notified that any dissemination, misuse or copying or disclosure of this communication by a recipient who has received this message in error is strictly prohibited. If this message is received in error, please return this email to the sender and immediately highlight any error in transmittal.

Thank you.

Ironmount have sent me documents totally unconnected to the purchase I made.  They were for a different name altogether.    For speed I repeated the order - and they again got it wrong, could not find my order  till I sent them the payment proof.    Still I am waiting, and despairing



Here an example of one exchange:

For years I have been ordering death certificates and associated probate records via
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

Whereas in the past these wee serviced by offices in Leeds you seem to have subcontracted this to an American outfit named      ironmountain

Not only is there no indication on the web page at https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate and at https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills that one is NOT speaking to a Government Department. the payment confirmations come through from  "Wills, HMCTS Wills" <hmctswills@...>

A whois search on the company gives no point for help to the public.

I have been waiting since August for one particular set of documents.   I repeated the order on 7 Sep 2020 12:44   because I had been sent totally wrong documents
 and still cannot find what happened/

7 Sep 2020 10:38


https://payments.epdq.co.uk/ncol/prod/orderstandard.asp
7 Sep 2020 12:44
Payment confirmation
Order overview
Order reference :       874898
Beneficiary :   Probate Search Service

Please will you help me out of this hole?

Thank you

David Lewin

I see this as a disaster and do not know how to end the nightmare

David Lewin
London

Dear Aaron,
I contacted my cousin who lives in Brisbane and who is in charge of his Shul's records. He has no records of Harry (Henry) Moses Weinstein (Winston). He also contacted a friend of his in South Brisbane and received the following negative reply:

Aaron, I was told many years ago never to trust death records. As an example I have an Elizabeth MOSS in my tree. Her death in Sydney Australia lists here parents from London as Isaac and Elizabeth. The mother's name is correct as no doubt this person told her family she was named after her mother. However her father's name was Henry, not Isaac. Be careful with information found in death records as it is provided by third parties.

Registration NumberÂ	Last NameÂ	Given Name(s)Â	Father's Given Name(s)Â	Mother's Given Name(s)Â	DistrictÂ	Purchase CertificateÂ
1193/1964	BLEVINS	ELIZABETH	ISAAC	ELIZABETH	SYDNEY	Â

 

--

I also agree that you cannot trust death records as giving correct details. i searched Australian records fruitlessly for quite some time for a relative whose birth was recorded as Melbourne in his death certificate. Eventually, via another record, I found him as being born in London (which I had suspected), but even there in the British records it took time to find his birth certificate as the surname was wrongly spelt by the clerk who took the registration. Marriage and birth records in English speaking countries of people whose origin was in East Europe often suffered from the person's thick accent causing the clerks to register wrong spellings -another example in my family is Valso instead of Warsaw!

Ann Belinsky
Israel

Iron Mountain is genuine: see www.ironmountain.co.uk/resources/case-studies/h/hm-courts-and-tribunals-services

But they seem not to be very efficient!

Shulamit Spain
Scotland

Your grandfather was probably at work in 1920, and not present when the census taker came to the door.  Whoever did respond, answered as best he/she  could.   Once in a while you will see a census entry as "unk"  for unknown.

David Rosen
Boston, MA

Thanks for your helpful suggestions so far, particularly Rodney, Terry, and Ann.  I wanted to post an update with some additional information and questions.

I've found some records in the JewishGen 'Jews Free School, Spitalfields' database (https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/uk/JFS/index.html).  Does anyone know if additional information is available on these students above and beyond what is indexed, particularly the child's birthplace?

According to Ancestry's Australia Death Index, 'Henry Moses Winston' died in Queensland on 6 Apr 1955.  Agree with Rodney that his second marriage record is the best potential source for his birthplace . . . it seems he married outside the faith.  And thanks to Rodney as well for the link to see what information is included on the Australian certificates as I was unable to find that detail.  According to Ancestry's UK outbound passenger lists, it appears that 'Henry Weinston' departed for Sydney on 6 Mar 1913 on the SS Commonwealth while his wife 'Jane Winston' and 5 of their children departed for Brisbane on 16 Jan 1914 on the SS Osterley.  Do Australian passenger manifests and naturalization records exist and, if so, do they include birthplace information?  I was unable to find anything for him on the National Archives of Australia site, although they do have his son's military record.

For those who have an Ancestry subscription, here is his 1911 UK Census entry which has a number of other associated records for him (https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=2352&h=41130846&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=7572).

Regards,
Aaron Slotnik
Chicago, IL

Aaron,
Australian naturalization records do exist, but British citizens did not need to naturalize. Until 1948(?), naturalizing in Australia meant taking on British citizenship.
There are lots of sources for passenger manifests into the various Australian colonies/states. For Queensland, start at:
https://www.qld.gov.au/recreation/arts/heritage/archives/collection/immigration

Drilling down, I searched the "Registers of immigrants, Brisbane 1885-1917" for WINSTON and was able to download a list of passengers on the "Commonwealth" who arrived at Brisbane on 5-May-1913. It showed that Henry Winston was a gardener from Hartford[shire] who arrived with his son Ralph. They departed the immigration depot on 6-May for Gayndah.

I hope this helps,
Rodney Eisfelder
Melbourne, Australia