How did my great grandmother travel to Ireland from Kyiv? #general #ukraine


jgexd7@...
 

Hello
My great grandmother Polly Fieldman was born in Kiev in 1889. She had a sister Leah (Lily) also born in Kiev about 1891. The other children were all born in Ireland.
The family (Polly and Leah and their parents Solomon /Samuel / David and Luby) travelled to Ireland around 1892 - 1893 and first settled in Dublin. My great great grandfather was named as Solomon / Samuel / David in different documents. We don't know when or where he died.
I had been led to believe that the family left on their migration via St. Petersburg but have no way to substantiate this.
Recently I saw something that indicated the family could have journeyed via Odessa.
There do not seem to be any passenger records for boats travelling to Ireland at the time. I wondered if anyone has any family who could have made a similar journey. Did they travel overland through Europe and then across England to get to Ireland?
I do know there are stories of migrants who wanted to get to America but the fare they had only allowed them to complete part of the journey.
My interest is in learning about the type of journey that the family had.
Thank you for reading this. Any help or guidance would be appreciated. It is important to me to know about the lives and ways of people and not just dates and places.
John Edwards


rv Kaplan
 

Don't know about Ireland, but my grandparents from Kaminets-Podolsk in Ukraine travelled via Rotterdam by boat to London, I think, then by train to Glasgow, Scotland.

I don't know if ships from Rotterdam (or Hamburg etc) sailed straight to Ireland.  Someone will know.

Harvey Kaplan
Glasgow


On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 at 15:13, <jgexd7@...> wrote:
Hello
My great grandmother Polly Fieldman was born in Kiev in 1889. She had a sister Leah (Lily) also born in Kiev about 1891. The other children were all born in Ireland.
The family (Polly and Leah and their parents Solomon /Samuel / David and Luby) travelled to Ireland around 1892 - 1893 and first settled in Dublin. My great great grandfather was named as Solomon / Samuel / David in different documents. We don't know when or where he died.
I had been led to believe that the family left on their migration via St. Petersburg but have no way to substantiate this.
Recently I saw something that indicated the family could have journeyed via Odessa.
There do not seem to be any passenger records for boats travelling to Ireland at the time. I wondered if anyone has any family who could have made a similar journey. Did they travel overland through Europe and then across England to get to Ireland?
I do know there are stories of migrants who wanted to get to America but the fare they had only allowed them to complete part of the journey.
My interest is in learning about the type of journey that the family had.
Thank you for reading this. Any help or guidance would be appreciated. It is important to me to know about the lives and ways of people and not just dates and places.
John Edwards


jgexd7@...
 

Thanks Harvey
I wonder if they reached Liverpool and then sailed to Dublin from there. It would have been such an adventure and ordeal in so many ways for them.
John Edwards


Jack Jacobson
 

My grandmother left Markovka in 1921, travelled to Bucharest where she obtained a passport and then travelled to Constantinople.   From there she took a Greek ship to New York.   
A complicated journey for a 17 year old woman but she did it.    I am fortunate to have many of the documents from that trip.   Not sure I would be able to find them online.

Jack Jacobson


Jill Whitehead
 

I have family by marriage who travelled in the 1860's across the Baltic, possibly from Konigsberg in East Prussia, to Hull in Yorkshire on the East Coast of England, then by train to Liverpool (this was the most common route for migrants in Britain - See University of Hull website and Hull and Liverpool Maritime Museums websites). They then stayed in Liverpool for a few years before moving onto Belfast in Northern Ireland.  

Jill Whitehead, Surrey, UK


Dr. Ruth Leiserowitz
 

One of the most convenient and cheapest (!) routes of emigration from the Ukrainian regions in the 1890s was by train to Libau (today: Liepaja)  and from there by ship directly to England or Ireland. (There was a ship twice a week.) Why cheap? Traveling by train was affordable in the Tsarist Empire. In addition, no state borders had to be crossed on this route. (In other decades were other variants, which were given preferance.) 

Ruth Leiserowitz


Dennis Flavell
 

A number of our GUREVITCH family came from the Kiev region c 1900 to England and some onwards to Canada.  By rail to Riga, Latvia, thence boat to Hull, rail to Liverpool via Leeds and Halifax.
From Liverpool to Ireland (Dublin or Belfast) could be your final route.
Dennis Flavell, Cambridgeshire.


lesliekel18@...
 

I am lucky enough to have travel documents for my family from 1923 for travelling from Zhitomir, Ukraine to Glasgow, Scotland. My family at that time was my grandfather (a widower) and his five children, 4 daughters and one son (my father).

They travelled by train from Zhitomir to Riga to obtain visas from the British Embassy in Riga. They would have had to change trains probably more than once due to the different rail gauges in the different countries. My understanding is that Latvia had a different rail gauge. In Riga they had to obtain visas to travel through Germany and Holland and to enter UK. From Holland they travelled by ferry from Hook of Holland to Harwich. From Harwich I assume that they travelled by train to Glasgow. I would love to know who helped them, who directed them, who translated for them.

The whole question of overland travel from the Pale to the West is very much undocumented, particularly in comparison to sea travel, when there were passenger lists.  Also there is an interesting "untold" story about the assistance that the travellers received on their journey. My aunts had stories about being given clothes in Holland. I tried to research "Immigrant Aid Societies" in Holland but without success.

Les Kelman
Toronto, Canada


rv Kaplan
 

Interesting Les.  I know there was a Montefiore Shelter for immigrants in Rotterdam, but haven't found records.  In London, there was the Poor Jews Temporary Shelter.

Dr Nicholas Evans in Hull did his PhD in the subject of 'Aliens en route: European Transmigration via the UK, 1836-1914.'  He can probably answer some of these questions.

Harvey Kaplan
Glasgow 


On Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 21:44, <lesliekel18@...> wrote:
I am lucky enough to have travel documents for my family from 1923 for travelling from Zhitomir, Ukraine to Glasgow, Scotland. My family at that time was my grandfather (a widower) and his five children, 4 daughters and one son (my father).

They travelled by train from Zhitomir to Riga to obtain visas from the British Embassy in Riga. They would have had to change trains probably more than once due to the different rail gauges in the different countries. My understanding is that Latvia had a different rail gauge. In Riga they had to obtain visas to travel through Germany and Holland and to enter UK. From Holland they travelled by ferry from Hook of Holland to Harwich. From Harwich I assume that they travelled by train to Glasgow. I would love to know who helped them, who directed them, who translated for them.

The whole question of overland travel from the Pale to the West is very much undocumented, particularly in comparison to sea travel, when there were passenger lists.  Also there is an interesting "untold" story about the assistance that the travellers received on their journey. My aunts had stories about being given clothes in Holland. I tried to research "Immigrant Aid Societies" in Holland but without success.

Les Kelman
Toronto, Canada


jgexd7@...
 

This is interesting because some of the family left Ireland in the 1950s and went to South Africa but according to family sources we believe they went to Leeds for a few weeks before making the journey to South Africa. Others went on to Canada, also in the 1950s. But I never knew who the connections in Leeds were.
John Edwards


Dr. Ruth Leiserowitz
 

Concerns rail gauge 
The railroad connections between the Baltic port cities (Libau /Liepaja and Riga respectively) and Ukraine via Belarus were (and still are!) direct and on the same gauge.

Ruth Leiserowitz


Barbara Hemmendinger
 

My grandfather, Adolph Bahssin (née Abram Basin) traveled from Chernigov near where he was born in Starodub, Russian empire, to Libau (now Liepaja, Latvia).  I have documents showing that he had purchased a package ticket by steamer in 1911 from Libau to Hull, England, where he transmigrated by railroad to Liverpool and boarded the Lusitania there bound for New York. That ship called at the port of Queenston (now Cork, Ireland). He continued on to NY arriving in the US on August 4, 1911. 

Interestingly, on the same voyage, and with a much more formal reception as my grandfather, which he recalled in person to my mother, was
  • Japan's Admiral Count Tōgō Heihachirō, commander of the Japanese fleet during the Russo-Japanese War, was welcomed to New York City as a guest of the United States. After arriving the night before on the Lusitania Aug, 4, 1911 at 11:40 pm, he transferred to two smaller boats and stayed at the Hotel Knickerbocker. Meeting Mayor William J. Gaynor later in the day, he departed on a train for Washington DC that afternoon, where he was hosted at a state dinner by President Taft.[8] 

Barbara Hemmendinger


sjgwed@...
 

About 20 years ago, my husband were vacationing in Barbados where we met several families of Scottish Jews also on vacation there. They told us that when their ancestors left Russia in the late 19th c or early 20th c, they traveled to a European seaport (name unknown) and boarded a ship that was bound for America. When the ship stopped in Britain, they naively assumed it was America and got off (!) 

Susan J. Gordon
BIALAZURKER - Zbaraz
LEMPERT - Lvov
EISMANN - Budapest


jgexd7@...
 

Susan
I don't think that story is too unusual. Some passengers were forced to disembark becuase they only had enough fare for that part of the journey even though they thought they had tickets through to the United States.
In Dublin, Ireland, local Jewish residents would go down to meet the ships coming to meet and Jewish travellers and give them a welcome to Dublin.
John Edwards


Mikkitobi@...
 

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 09:08 AM, <jgexd7@...> wrote:
Susan
I don't think that story is too unusual. Some passengers were forced to disembark becuase they only had enough fare for that part of the journey even though they thought they had tickets through to the United States.
In Dublin, Ireland, local Jewish residents would go down to meet the ships coming to meet and Jewish travellers and give them a welcome to Dublin.
John Edwards

 I am afraid the "Scotland=New York" story is an old wives tale. Passengers knew what tickets they had and the itinerary. They knew if they had to disembark the ship and travel part of their journey by train.

Very few, if any, ships arrived in Scotland with continued onward passage from the same port by ship to the USA. Passengers HAD to disembark. Virtually all ships arriving in the UK arrived at East Coast or South Coast ports. Passengers traveling to the USA who had arrived at East Coast UK ports then took trains to West Coast UK ports to continue their journeys.

I am not aware of ships arriving in Dublin from mainland Europe (the most efficient journeys were to the East Coast UK ports).. Where did those Dublin arrivals come from? Many of the ships leaving Glasgow and Liverpool stopped at Irish ports enroute to the USA and some passengers wanting to disembark in Ireland would have done so. Are they the immigrants greeted by the local Jewish residents of Dublin?

Michael Tobias


jgexd7@...
 

Michael
Boats to Dublin would likely have come from Liverpool so making an East -West journey across England likely for migrants. One of the earlier comments mentioned journeys to Hull by boat. I think this is the most likelt jouney my ancestors have taken but I just don't know.

Glasgow - Londonderry - Philadelphia and New York were popular migration journeys. 
https://www.donegalcoco.ie/media/donegalcountyc/archives/pdfs/Across%20the%20Atlantic-%20Emigrating%20from%20Moville%20%20Derry.pdf

Some may have travelled Liverpool - New York without stopping in Ireland. see https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/archivesheet13

John Edwards