Newbie Question #dna #sephardic


Kevin Brook
 

Clarifications:

In a sentence in my last message (#654734) -- "My take on the DNA segments I found shared by Sicilian Catholics and Ashkenazic Jews, which are not common, is that one of the Sicilian Converso men escaped to the east then he or a child went northeast." -- I meant to write "north" instead of "northeast".

And I should clarify that the above is an explanation for their *non-Sephardic* DNA segments that are shared between Ashkenazim and Sicilians but not with Hispanics nor with Sephardim, to distinguish from the Sephardic DNA segments that Sicilians can also share with us. A Sephardic Jewish segment originated in Iberia, not Sicily, but can still be shared with Sicilians. A Sicilian Jewish segment originated in Sicily.

As far as the verification processes I alluded to, they are called triangulation and phasing.

Kevin Brook


Kevin Brook
 

Josh, your DNA testing company won't be able to determine that accurately since they have been known for false positives as well as false negatives when it come to companies predicting Sephardic Jewish ancestry.

As I always say, the best approach is to upload your DNA from whatever company you used to GEDmatch and Family Tree DNA in order to manually browse or search for Portuguese, Spanish, and Latin American Catholic matches deep down in your list, then to see if they cluster on particular chromosome numbers and particular areas of those chromosomes in your Chromosome Browsers, then take it from there. There are verification processes that should be undertaken to make sure bad data isn't causing identical-by-chance matching. If you had Eastern Ashkenazic ancestors you are nearly guaranteed to have at least one Sephardic ancestor who can be found genetically.

Susan, plenty of data have been collected by this point but relying on imperfect calculators to have something show up is problematic. A barrier is most of the surviving Sephardic populations aren't purely Sephardic. For instance, Moroccan Jews have varying degrees of indigenous Berber admixture (although Spanish-speaking Jews from northern Morocco have less of that), while Turkish Jews and Bulgarian Jews have large degrees of admixture with Ashkenazic and Romaniote Jews, and Sephardim in Aleppo, Syria mixed with Middle Eastern Jews. Matching a modern Sephardic person or having genes similar to a modern Sephardic reference group does not prove Sephardic descent.

Kenneth said it's "a matter... also of Italians having Jewish DNA". Yes, some Italians have Jewish ancestry, in some cases as recently as the 1400s-1500s. It's particularly apparent among Sicilians living in the Siracusa region (SE Sicily), the province of Agrigento (SW Sicily), and the Palermo region (NW Sicily). Sometimes their Jewish ancestry is Sephardic Jewish in origin, other times from the pre-1492 population of local Jews of Romaniote or Italki extraction whom I've been calling Sicilian Jewish. Segment match analysis turned up these connections.

Also there have been some documentary clues. Searching Sephardic SIG's archives here, I saw Nardo Bonomi mentioned in message #612299 the Inquisition case of a Jew-turned-Catholic in Agrigento in 1535 named Jorlando La Licata.

Then I saw another confirmation of the genetic matching pattern I witnessed in Nardo's message #319899 that indicated members of the Palumbo family lived in Sicily in the 1500s and the Inquisition went after them, too. Nardo says one of their cities was Palermo. In message #612203 Jan Meisels Allen referred to 5,000 or more Jews in Palermo who were forced to pretend to be Catholics.

Then there's message #611131 where Michael Waas referenced an apparent Jew named Josue Rubi who lived in the city of Siracusa in, he thinks, the late 1400s.

Hence providing explanations for the existence of Jewish DNA in precisely those same places: Agrigento, Palermo, and Siracusa. Just as Jewish DNA exists in other regions (e.g., Mexico, Spain) where the Inquisition persecuted people and is findable by using my techniques to locate cousin matches between Jews and Catholics.

I don't know whether there's Jewish DNA to be found among residents of towns in the province of Messina (NE Sicily), such as those in Susan's family. Sicily is pretty diverse with regional DNA differences.

My take on the DNA segments I found shared by Sicilian Catholics and Ashkenazic Jews, which are not common, is that one of the Sicilian Converso men escaped to the east then he or a child went northeast. It's documented that there were some Jews from other parts of Italy who made it to Poland. In Alexander Beider's "A Dictionary of Jewish Surnames from the Kingdom of Poland", he mentioned that Moses Montalto of Lublin (d. 1637) had a surname indicating his family's origin in the Italian town of Montalto. He also references Chaim Felix Vitalis, who studied in the city of Padua before he moved to Poland, and to Rabbi Abraham Italicus of Poland.

Susan's ancestors from Lvov and Skalat probably had some Sephardic in them because Lvov was one of the first destinations for Sephardim arriving in the Polish realm from Turkey and spread out over Galitzia after that.

Kevin Alan Brook
author of the 5-part series on Sephardic ancestry in Yiddishland for ZichronNote (SFBAJGS)


Diane Jacobs
 

And that goes for everything in genealogy.
Even vital records and other documents can contain errors by the person whose data it is,
by the clerk filling it out and by the person
translating it, proofreading, and so on.
 
Always keep an open mind and remember spelling does not count . Always cast a wide 
Berth team vital records. manifests etc. etc.
 
Diane Jacobs

 

On Jan 15, 2021, at 8:46 AM, Larry Gaum <larrygaum@...> wrote:

When dealing with companies that promise to study your DNA and determine your origins, it’s best to accept the results with a bit of scepticism and a grain or two of salt.
Larry Gaum
Toronto

--
Diane Jacobs, Somerset, New Jersey


Larry Gaum
 

When dealing with companies that promise to study your DNA and determine your origins, it’s best to accept the results with a bit of scepticism and a grain or two of salt.
Larry Gaum
Toronto


Kenneth Ryesky
 

During and following the Roman conquest of Judea, many Jews were taken captive back to Rome.  uch Roman infrastructure, including the Coliseum, was built by Jewish slave labor.

So there were Jews and Italians in close proximity to one another; close enough for DNA to jump either direction.  Accordingly, it is not solely a matter of Jews having Italian DNA, but also of Italians having Jewish DNA.

[And there are many blonde-haired Italians; if you see one, remember that the Vikings had occasion to sail into the Mediterranean and drop anchor in Italian ports.].

--
Ken Ryesky,  Petach Tikva, Israel     kenneth.ryesky@... 

Researching:
RAISKY/REISKY, ARONOV, SHKOLNIK(OV), AEROV; Gomel, Belarus
GERTZIG, BRODSKY; Yelizavetgrad, Ukraine
BRODSKY, VASILESKY; Odessa, Ukraine
IZRAELSON, ARSHENOV; Yevpatoriya, Ukraine (Crimea)


Dahn Cukier
 

At one company I am told I have 92% Ashkanazi, 5% N.Africa and 3%
Italian ancesrty. At another company I am 100% European Jewish.

I can trace 3 of 4 families back over 150 years - Ashkanzi. The third I share
DNA with a second cousin, she does not have Italian ancestors in her DNA.

DNA is an assumption and should not be trusted with a people who have
been on the move for 2000 years. DNA is modern and can be traced who
lives in a location NOW. As more people share their DNA and family trees,
the mix of ancestry changes.

I suspect that my N. African DNA is from someone who married a Ottoman
soldier  or trader. Where I have Italian DNA is a question, this is the first
time my DNA has been so specific, but 3%......

Dahn Cukier

When you start to read readin,
how do you know the fellow that
wrote the readin,
wrote the readin right?

Festus Hagen
Long Branch Saloon
Dodge City, Kansas
(Gunsmoke)


On Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 5:30:28 PM GMT+2, Josh Feingold <joshfeingold@...> wrote:


Hi there.  I am trying to see if I have sephardic descent, and am not exactly sure where to start. 
 
Looking at my DNA, it showed I am 99.5% Ashkanazi and .5% from what is now Turkey.  I can go back a few generations, but don't really know how to attach my family tree to the work that others have done.  Is there anyone here who would be willing to help me with that a little?  My best guess (looking at family last names) is that there is a Milgrom in one branch of the family tree, but in truth, I guess it could be anywhere.
 
Thanks for your help!
 
--
Josh Feingold


sjgwed@...
 

My family, too, is searching for Sephardi data, but nothing comes up... yet. From what I've gathered, not enough DNA data has been collected yet.

Susan Gordon
BIALAZURKER - Zbarazh, Budapest
LEMPERT - Skalat, Lvov
EISMANN - Budapest
GULLOTTA - Castelmola Sicily

 


Richard Werbin
 

1/2 % is noise in the data. It is meaningless. 
A good rule of thumb is to ignore any ethnicities below 5%.
--
Richard Werbin    New York, New York     JGSNY Membership Vice President


joshfeingold@...
 

Hi there.  I am trying to see if I have sephardic descent, and am not exactly sure where to start. 
 
Looking at my DNA, it showed I am 99.5% Ashkanazi and .5% from what is now Turkey.  I can go back a few generations, but don't really know how to attach my family tree to the work that others have done.  Is there anyone here who would be willing to help me with that a little?  My best guess (looking at family last names) is that there is a Milgrom in one branch of the family tree, but in truth, I guess it could be anywhere.
 
Thanks for your help!
 
--
Josh Feingold