DNA Matches - Most CentiMorgans or Largest Segment? #poland #dna #galicia #ukraine #education


Vivs
 

Genetic Affairs tried to run things at "off hours" but found that there were no real "off hours."  Between world wide users, and Ancestry's own programs that use up cycles when not being used by users, there just was not a time of day that there wasn't "too much demand" on the servers.  The solution, of course, is major upgrades.  But convincing a corp to dig into its profits, is always a challenge
--
Vivs Laliberte
www.theOCGG.com

Orange County, Calfiornia


Dahn Cukier
 

MHeritage also has/had a download but had to be searched for in
the settings.  I am asking it of Ancestry.
 
There was a app that, IMO, caused DOS on the Ancestry site but
would build a spreadsheet. I tried it once, but as I wrote a few
words back, IMO it would cause  denial-of-service.
 
DOS is when an app causes so much traffic to a site, usually with
the assistance of many machine at many sites, that the online user
has trouble accessing the data (service),
 
The solution many sites have found, not only genealogy sites, is to collect requests
and run the query at off times and at a lower priority, and preparing downloadable
files.

Dahn Cukier
 
>Hi
>For the moment, at least, DNAGedcom is able to download your matches to a spreadsheet.
 
 
When you start to read readin,
how do you know the fellow that
wrote the readin,
wrote the readin right?

Festus Hagen
Long Branch Saloon
Dodge City, Kansas
(Gunsmoke)
 
 

On Friday, March 5, 2021, 5:46:33 PM GMT+2, Vivs <vivs@...> wrote:
 
 

Hi

For the moment, at least, DNAGedcom is able to download your matches to a spreadsheet. 
--
Vivs Laliberte
www.theOCGG.com

Orange County, Calfiornia


Vivs
 

The largest segment data at Ancestry is new and a helpful piece of the puzzle, but we need to also look at what is left over. 

For example, 200 cM , 25 largest segment, and a total of 8 segments would mean that there are 175 cM to spread over the remaining 7 segments, or they are all 25cM, this is likely a pretty close match (and a statistical improbability, but I am trying to keep the math simple here.) The larger segment average points toward the shared DNA being from a recent close relationship.

 On the other hand 200 cM, 25 largest segment, and a total of 15 segments means 175cM spread over 14, and we have about 12.5cM on average.  The smaller average segment size points to a more likely case of many distant connections (endogamy) vs a recent close connection.  It is, assuredly, playing the statistics, but it can help us  decide which matches are more likely to turn up something we can pin down.  Because it is playing the odds, though, sometimes it will be wrong. 


Vivs Laliberte
www.theOCGG.com

Orange County, Calfiornia


Vivs
 

Hi

For the moment, at least, DNAGedcom is able to download your matches to a spreadsheet. 
--
Vivs Laliberte
www.theOCGG.com

Orange County, Calfiornia


Dahn Cukier
 

There are a number of missing tools at Ancestry, but I'd like to be able
to get a spreadsheet file of DNA matches. I would then be able to
compare the 50k 4th and closer relatives of the 9 accounts I have management
ability and would be able to request from other, known relatives, but
not close socially, to send me their matches.

Dahn Cukier

>The large Ancestry database has provide me with the most matches, but it would be much more helpful if they >had a chromosome browser so I could see exactly what the match was and compare it to others. As noted, >they are far behind in this regard,
>
>David Sanger


When you start to read readin,
how do you know the fellow that
wrote the readin,
wrote the readin right?

Festus Hagen
Long Branch Saloon
Dodge City, Kansas
(Gunsmoke)


On Friday, March 5, 2021, 8:24:19 AM GMT+2, David Sanger <ds@...> wrote:


The large Ancestry database has provide me with the most matches, but it would be much more helpful if they had a chromosome browser so I could see exactly what the match was and compare it to others. As noted, they are far behind in this regard,

David Sanger

--

SCHLANGER, BRAND from Jezowe,  Kolbuszowa, Sokołów Małopolski 

SIMIANSKI , SZCZUCZINSKY (STUTINSKY), JAWORKOWSKA, BERKOWNA from Filipow, Suwalki and Warsaw



david sanger, albany ca

david sanger photography

travel ::  outdoors :: photography :: media

updates at www.davidsanger.com

 


David Sanger
 

The large Ancestry database has provide me with the most matches, but it would be much more helpful if they had a chromosome browser so I could see exactly what the match was and compare it to others. As noted, they are far behind in this regard,

David Sanger

--

SCHLANGER, BRAND from Jezowe,  Kolbuszowa, Sokołów Małopolski 

SIMIANSKI , SZCZUCZINSKY (STUTINSKY), JAWORKOWSKA, BERKOWNA from Filipow, Suwalki and Warsaw



david sanger, albany ca

david sanger photography

travel ::  outdoors :: photography :: media

updates at www.davidsanger.com

 


Phil Karlin
 

As frustrating as Ancestry is, it has the largest database of users, and It now shows you the longest segment. Shared matches are far and away more useful than any other service. 
The lack of detailed info you get elsewhere is frustrating, but it still has been more productive for me than the other services. 
--
Phil Karlin
Hartford, CT USA


Alan Ehrlich
 

To be sure, I’m a big fan of Ancestry.com in general. It’s unequalled... That said, not so regarding their handling of DNA test results from other suppliers, or more precisely their absolute lack thereof. Luckily, if you tested with one of the other providers (because there arevadvantages to that), having your results uploaded to all the others (except Ancestry) leaves your resulting absence from Ancestry... Insignificant.


Especially, because I suspect it's fair to say that most serious family researchers who were tested via Ancestry (you know which ones I mean, the ones who’ll actually respond when you contact them about a match 😀) also uploaded their results to all the other databases as well. So you’ll find them anyway... and they you.

From my perspective, Ancestry not taking your test results into their database when these came from another provider much more is a ’Bug’... than  a ’Feature’ 

Kind regards,
Alan Ehrlich
Geneva, Switzerland


Moishe Miller
 

Hello,
You ask an excellent question about the size of a single large cM match. I would always recommend that you consult the Shared cM Project to get a sense of the potential range for your match-size. It is at https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4

Putting in 35cM to the "filter", it shows a 51% likelihood of between 4c1r to 8c or even further back. An 8c requires that you can both trace back to all your 10th generation ancestry, all lines. Highly unlikely that even one of you has such a complete tree. A 4c1r relationship is only slightly better; one of you needs to know all lines to the 7th generation and the other to the 6th.

My recommendation is to focus on doing the as much of the paper-trail to have at least all 8 g-gp's with surnames and better, all 16 gg-gp's. For the distant matches, you really need to get to at least gggg-gp's (all 64 of them), if you want to just use surname to identify a 5c match. Or, Once at all 16 gg-gp's, you can try to use shared-matches and triangulation in order to at least narrow down the part of your family pedigree the 35cM match relates to.

You might also review Dana Leed's "Leeds Method". See: https://www.danaleeds.com/can-the-leeds-method-help-me/

Good luck and stay safe,
--

Moishe Miller
Brooklyn, NY
moishe.miller@...
JGFF #3391


Richard Cooper
 

Many thanks to everybody who replied!
I watched the webinar, and yes, it did explain things very well.
Also Jill Whitehead's article, and indeed all the others in 'Shemot' DNA edition of December 2019 (journal of JGSGB), which make a lot more sense to me now I'm actually working with the results of my own Ancestry autosomal DNA test,
--
Ric Cooper
Midhurst, UK


Hazel Dakers
 

The advantage of choosing Ancestry, Ric, is that whilst you can export your raw data from Ancestry into FTDNA, Gedcom, Living DNA and My Heritage - so testing yours against all these pools of DNA - had you chosen one of the others, Ancestry would not allow you to import raw data from another company into their system.

I know precisely the link between myself and one of my 5th cousins who has become a friend through genealogy for some 20 years. Of course we didn't use DNA for that - merely old fashioned archival research! However, I now also manage his DNA results which could at some time prove useful to researching our mutual family.

Hazel Dakers, London UK researching:

BIRNBAUM (Zgierz, Poland), GOLD (Zgierz, Poland),  HEIMANN (South Africa and Luegde, Germany), NORDEN/NORDON/NORTON (London and South Africa)

www.hazeldakers.co.uk


Max Heffler
 

I watched the webinar last night, and even though I have been testing for almost 19 years, I learned some new techniques to be more productive finding connections. The webinar was excellent and valuable for beginners and us “old-timers.”

 

Max Heffler

Houston, TX

 

From: main@... [mailto:main@...] On Behalf Of Steven Turner via groups.jewishgen.org
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 8:16 AM
To: main@...
Subject: Re: [JewishGen.org] DNA Matches - Most CentiMorgans or Largest Segment? #dna #education #poland #ukraine #galicia

 

Gesher Galicia has a new webinar out today that exactly explains this issue. It would really pay for you to watch it. You need to be a member of Gesher Galicia to view but if you are not it certainly would pay for you to join. It's only $36.

https://www.geshergalicia.org/.../getting-started-with.../


--

Max Heffler
Houston, TX
max@...
HEFFLER(Ukraine)/TIRAS(Poland)/WASSEMAN(Lithuania)/MOORE(Poland)/ZLOT(Lithuania)
GORENSTEIN(Ukraine)/FLEISCHMAN(Latvia)/GOLDEN(Lithuania)


Steven Turner
 

Gesher Galicia has a new webinar out today that exactly explains this issue. It would really pay for you to watch it. You need to be a member of Gesher Galicia to view but if you are not it certainly would pay for you to join. It's only $36.

https://www.geshergalicia.org/.../getting-started-with.../


Jill Whitehead
 

Hi Richard

I suggest you look at the Shemot DNA edition of December 2019 (journal of JGSGB). 

1) Ancestry is not helpful for DNA analysis - it is best for family trees and it is also the most expensive for DNA. You would have been better off going for either FTDNA, 23andme or My Heritage, which all give you detailed chromosome analysis, without needing to upload to Gedmatch. 

2) Size of segment is the thing I look for - and not just one large segment but several of them. Ancestry does not give you that info but the others do. I look for segments above 20cm for closer relationships. That will mean mostly 1st, 2nd, 3rd cousins, and possibly 4th cousins, but nothing above that. 5th cousins to distant cousins are mainly meaningless, as all they mean is that you share a common (much smaller sized) gene and a very far back ancestor with  someone of Jewish ancestry in the last few hundred or even thousands of years (as we are all ultimately interrelated). 

3) You will be given many 3rd cousins most of which you will never be able to trace. And most of the companies are also very optimistic, and so 3rd cousin may really mean 4th or 5th cousin etc. The real number of actual 3rd cousins is probably less than that given - though you could be interrelated on the same level with several of your own relations, which would up the number of 3rd cousins given.Sometimes you think a relationship is on one side of your family, when in fact it is on another side, or on both sides. Because of all the 1st cousin and uncle-niece marriages etc in enclosed communities, over time, this spiders web is more likely. 

4) You need to combine DNA analysis with a paper trail to get any meaning out of it.  

5) You need to test many known cousins to get a fuller picture. I now have a network of known family members on all the main testing sites so we can make comparisons. However, as DNA is randomly inherited, you do need to look for common patterns as not all of your relations will share the same set of genes. 

6) There will be some who seem to be closely related that you will not be able to find a relationship for by any means - beware false paternities (children outside marriage) ! Or - as I discovered-  someone who was a sperm donor in the USA, whose progeny seemed to be related to me.They all had the same name of Weiss - and I could not understand this as I was unaware of anyone called Weiss in my family. Then a US contact told me the origin of this. 

7) Although it helps to look for ancestors having the same origin in Eastern Europe or elsewhere, you may also need to look wider.  As my ancestors from Baltic Europe were going to the UK, France and Sweden, and all points west, in the 1860s and 1870s, others were going south to Belarus or Ukraine at the same time. So you could be closely related to someone with a different European origin, due to when they emigrated and where they emigrated to (which could be more than once).

Jill Whitehead, Surrey, Uk
On FTDNA, 23andme, Ancestry, MyHeritage, and Gedmatch


Herbert Lazerow
 

    DNA matches are a combination of science and statistics.  Whenever statistics are involved, we are dealing with probabilities. The probability is that someone with whom you share a largest match of at least 35 cM is going to be related, but you will not always be able to prove it. That is because most of us who are descended from eastern European Jews cannot trace that descent back before our ancestors came to western Europe or North America, either because we do not know the town in which they lived in easern Europe, or because the records there were destroyed, or our ancestors neglected to register.
    Most genealogists have some cut-off below which they do not both with a match.  People have told me that they need a largest match block of 20 cMs plus a second block of at least 10 cMs to make the match worth investigating. I am likely to investigate any match of at least 25 cMs, but I recognize that at the end of the day, it is likely that we will say that the relationship has not been proven..
    Another check is to look for common matches. If we have common substantial matches with most people who have tested on one side of my family in addition to the match with me, I am interested; if someone matches one cousin out of 5 on my father's side and one cousin out of 4 on my mother's side, I am not so interested.
    Be aware that sometimes statistical  probability is just plain wrong. Most of my second cousins and second cousins once removed are in the 200-400 cM range on FamilyTree DNA, with a longest match in the 20 - 40 cM range. But I also have one known second cousin once removed where the match is 79/19.
Bert
--
Herbert Lazerow
Professor of Law, University of San Diego
5998 Alcala Park, San Diego CA 92110 U.S.A.
(619)260-4597 office, (858)453-2388 cell, lazer@...
Author: Mastering Art Law (2d ed. Carolina Academic Press 2020)


Richard Cooper
 

As an experienced researcher but a newbie to DNA, I'm struggling with interpreting the results.
I did the basic autosomal test with Ancestry and uploaded my data to GEDmatch and MyHeritage for maximum coverage. I've matched the DNA of 13 other second and third cousins whom I knew already, and their matches fit the standard pattern.
So far, so good. But I've also found 70 or so people with whom I have no known connection and no shared surname, going back to when surnames were made mandatory for Eastern European Jews (c.1800), who share with me either more than 100cM of DNA or one segment longer than 35cM. That's more than many of my third cousins!
I know that because we Ashkenazi Jews are an endogamous population I may share a total amount of DNA with someone with whom I have no single recent common ancestor, but many repeated strands which might not converge later than perhaps 20 or more generations ago. But my question is this: does one shared segment of (say) 35 to 50 cM mean that we are almost certainly fifth cousins or closer? Or is it again just an indicator of endogamy?
--
Ric Cooper
Midhurst, UK
BORENSTEIN, MORDECHELEVITCH,GODZINSKIJ & ZIMNOWICZ from Warsaw and Grodno
MILLET, ENGELBERG, BLUMENKEHL, SUSSWEIN, WACKS & PITERZIL from Tarnow, Dabrowa Tarnowska and Lezajsk
LEZTER, SALENDER, RINENBERG, EISEN & KRAETTER from Rzeszow and Kolbuszowa
YAROSHEVSKY, SHAPOCHNIKOW & GRANITUR from Odessa and Zlatopol/Novomirgorod
LEWINSTEIN from Berdichev
ADLER, FINKELSTEIN, PARYLLE, WEINTRAUB & ZILZ from Tarnopol and Trembowla